Who is stronger, Wu or Shu?

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Re: Who is stronger, Wu or Shu?

Unread postby Shen Ai » Sat Nov 05, 2011 7:01 pm

Striga wrote:Due to this, only population really counted later on, but before the loss of Jingzhou, Shu had slightly more able strategists and warriors. At Yiling most of Wu's old generals died (in the novel), but Shu suffered a huge defeat.

Yes, if Shu had Jingzhou things would be different. But at Yiling, many talented Shu officers died, while many Wu veterans died.
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Re: Who is stronger, Wu or Shu?

Unread postby Striga » Sat Nov 05, 2011 7:15 pm

If Shu had Jingzhou, Zhuge Liang's campaigns may have done some damage to Wei, but most of Wu's veteran generals said to die at Yiling didn't actually die, and they were all very old already.
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Re: Who is stronger, Wu or Shu?

Unread postby Shen Ai » Sun Nov 06, 2011 3:34 pm

Shu could have done damage if they had Jingzhou, because then all they would have to do would be too is attack Fancheng and then take the central plains. In Yi there was to much difficult terrain.
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Re: Who is stronger, Wu or Shu?

Unread postby Striga » Sun Nov 06, 2011 7:59 pm

If Wu had waited any longer, then Shu would possibly had defeated Wei, and turned on Wu.
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Re: Who is stronger, Wu or Shu?

Unread postby Shen Ai » Sun Nov 06, 2011 11:43 pm

Maybe, but Wei had a huge number of soldiers and Zhuge Liang was a fairly cautious dude. Cao Rui was quite alert when he was alive and Cao Pi might have been bad at attacking, but he was clever and if he was invaded, I'm sure things would be different. Plus, Fan castle was a win for Wei even without Wu. Xu Huang quickly turned the tide of the battle.
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Re: Who is stronger, Wu or Shu?

Unread postby Striga » Mon Nov 07, 2011 12:22 am

Yeah, Guan Yu's troops were the best of Shu's, but under his leadership, they were quickly defeated by Xu Huang. Xu Huang didn't get to reap the benefits of his victory since Wu got there first.
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Re: Who is stronger, Wu or Shu?

Unread postby Shen Ai » Fri Nov 25, 2011 12:59 pm

I think Wu went after Guan Yu in order to claim the land. I don't know why Xu Huang never attempted to take Jing. It could be that after Hanzhong, Wei had limited food supplies or something? The novel makes it seem like Cao Cao intended to lay the blame of Wu so that Wu would take the damage against Shu. I can see that.
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Re: Who is stronger, Wu or Shu?

Unread postby Gray Riders » Fri Nov 25, 2011 2:06 pm

Shen Ai wrote:I don't know why Xu Huang never attempted to take Jing.

Some records claim Sun Quan had written about his plan to Cao Cao, though Professor Rafe believes it may have been false, simply because Sun Quan would have no reason to do so. If that is true though, that's one good reason; he knew that Wu's army would already be in Jing and he wouldn't be able to dislodge them with the forces he had.

If it's false, he still may have thought he simply didn't have enough troops to do so; remember that it usually takes a much larger army to succesfully attack. Although he'd defeated Guan Yu in battle, so had several other Wei officers, and Jing was still strong to open attack.
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Re: Who is stronger, Wu or Shu?

Unread postby mrbeate » Fri Nov 25, 2011 11:02 pm

Not to mention Xu Huang's order were just to repel Guan Yu. Xu Huang just had an army of recruits who would have possible deserted or rebelled if put into the field too long. And yes, his inferior numbers were not enough to go on besieging cities. It is pretty obvious that to besiege a city, you must have superior numbers then the defense, and enough men to surround the city. Xu Huang did not have this.
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Re: Who is stronger, Wu or Shu?

Unread postby ROTKobsessed » Tue Jun 04, 2013 7:12 pm

mrbeate wrote:Not to mention Xu Huang's order were just to repel Guan Yu. Xu Huang just had an army of recruits who would have possible deserted or rebelled if put into the field too long. And yes, his inferior numbers were not enough to go on besieging cities. It is pretty obvious that to besiege a city, you must have superior numbers then the defense, and enough men to surround the city. Xu Huang did not have this.


In the novel, I think Zhuge Liang (or LGZ putting words in his mouth) estimated that the attacking force needed 3x the defending force to launch a successful seige
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