Who is stronger, Wu or Shu?

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Re: Who is stronger, Wu or Shu?

Unread postby Cao Chao » Thu Sep 26, 2013 2:41 pm

ROTKobsessed wrote:
mrbeate wrote:Not to mention Xu Huang's order were just to repel Guan Yu. Xu Huang just had an army of recruits who would have possible deserted or rebelled if put into the field too long. And yes, his inferior numbers were not enough to go on besieging cities. It is pretty obvious that to besiege a city, you must have superior numbers then the defense, and enough men to surround the city. Xu Huang did not have this.


In the novel, I think Zhuge Liang (or LGZ putting words in his mouth) estimated that the attacking force needed 3x the defending force to launch a successful seige

Are you sure this isn't from playing too much Civilization?
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Re: Who is stronger, Wu or Shu?

Unread postby ROTKobsessed » Sun Oct 20, 2013 12:10 am

Cao Chao wrote:
ROTKobsessed wrote:
mrbeate wrote:Not to mention Xu Huang's order were just to repel Guan Yu. Xu Huang just had an army of recruits who would have possible deserted or rebelled if put into the field too long. And yes, his inferior numbers were not enough to go on besieging cities. It is pretty obvious that to besiege a city, you must have superior numbers then the defense, and enough men to surround the city. Xu Huang did not have this.


In the novel, I think Zhuge Liang (or LGZ putting words in his mouth) estimated that the attacking force needed 3x the defending force to launch a successful seige

Are you sure this isn't from playing too much Civilization?


I've never played it, sorry - I just recall the quote
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Re: Who is stronger, Wu or Shu?

Unread postby LiuBeiwasGreat » Mon Nov 11, 2013 6:03 pm

mrbeate wrote:Not to mention Xu Huang's order were just to repel Guan Yu. Xu Huang just had an army of recruits who would have possible deserted or rebelled if put into the field too long. And yes, his inferior numbers were not enough to go on besieging cities. It is pretty obvious that to besiege a city, you must have superior numbers then the defense, and enough men to surround the city. Xu Huang did not have this.


Actually Xu Huang's forces were initially an army of recruits. After arriving and setting up camp he was reinforced twice before actually attacking. Thus we have no idea how numerous or strong his force was by the time he actually started fighting.
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Re: Who is stronger, Wu or Shu?

Unread postby Ouyang_Feng » Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:51 pm

Shu never stronger than Wu from the start until the end
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Re: Who is stronger, Wu or Shu?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sun Feb 02, 2020 11:50 am

Ouyang_Feng wrote:Shu never stronger than Wu from the start until the end


I think there is meant to be a time period, around conquest of Hanzhong to fall of Jing where Shu was the stronger power particularly due to sense of momentum
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Re: Who is stronger, Wu or Shu?

Unread postby Ouyang_Feng » Sun Feb 02, 2020 2:05 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:
Ouyang_Feng wrote:Shu never stronger than Wu from the start until the end


I think there is meant to be a time period, around conquest of Hanzhong to fall of Jing where Shu was the stronger power particularly due to sense of momentum


You mean like their morale as kingdom?
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Re: Who is stronger, Wu or Shu?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sun Feb 02, 2020 6:13 pm

Ouyang_Feng wrote:
Dong Zhou wrote:
Ouyang_Feng wrote:Shu never stronger than Wu from the start until the end


I think there is meant to be a time period, around conquest of Hanzhong to fall of Jing where Shu was the stronger power particularly due to sense of momentum


You mean like their morale as kingdom?


That would had an impact on morale but also political and diplomatic standing. When Lu Bei had gone from small base in Shu to ruler of most of Jing, Yi and Hanzhong, killing Xiahou Yuan, while Wu forces had suffered some embrassment at Hefei and were stuck, it had ramifications.
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Re: Who is stronger, Wu or Shu?

Unread postby Ouyang_Feng » Sun Feb 02, 2020 6:47 pm

It could be true, but it didn't last long. Well i didn't noticed this because i think Liu Bei at that time still 'new' in Yi and he still not gain full support from people of Yi, i mean the commoner, also.. right after Liu Bei get Yi, there is dispute in Jing where he must given up half of Jing to Sun Quan, and of course Han Zhong as newly conquered city still unstable, that's how i see things so i can make statement that Shu never stronger than Wu
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Re: Who is stronger, Wu or Shu?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sun Feb 02, 2020 7:12 pm

It certainly didn't last long, I was just pointing out never was probably too far

Liu Bei conquered Yi, it was his even with the usual new guy revolts. I think when your trying to argue his taking it doesn't quite count for sense of strength as too new, your stretching somewhat.
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Re: Who is stronger, Wu or Shu?

Unread postby Li_Shengsun » Fri Feb 14, 2020 1:08 pm

hard to say which is stronger.
in terms of aggressiveness, Shu is on top. but in term of defense and passiveness, Wu is the best.

btw Wu lost not bc they waited too long, i pretty doubt they have any ambition to conquer China. They just sit and mind their own business and only attacking when they seen an opening. Wu lost because of the internal disputes that spanned for like 20-30 years, many talents is lost during that time. By the time Jin making an offensive against Wu, Wu no longer have any strength to fight.

Shu was lost bc that stupid Jiang Wei changed the interlocking camp defensive strategy concocted by Wei Yan and Wang Ping. And also that slippery eel Huang Hao who kept spreading his poisonous venom on the Court. not to mention that 11th campaign launched by that stupid disciple which drained the already drained resources.

perhaps i might say theyre equal in strength?

-Edit-
Zhuge Liang also mention about Liu Bei need Wu to restore Han, Wu also needed Liu to survive. ZGL's longzhong plan was centralized on Jingzhou. Had Pang Tong werent died on Yizhou, ZGL wouldnt had to move and Jingzhou would never fall to Wu so prematurely.
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