Jiang Wei, the killer of a kingdom?

[Ender]

Though many people Kongming was not a very good military general he held against Wei when he still lived. On the other hand after Jiang Wei's sucession to leader of the military, after Zhuge's death, lead to the fall of Shu Han. Jiang Wei still had many men left from Kongming's Northern Caimpaigns yet he kept attacking Wei and almost alway's loses to Deng Ai. He keep's up his unsucessful attacks on Wei untill he goes to a defensive battle against Dend Ai. Even though Deng Ai still defeated Jiang Wei untill he captured Cheng Du. After the capture of Cheng Du Shu Han gives in to Wei.

Now most people belive Kongming was unsucessful in his Northern Caimpaigns but Kongming wasn't unsucessful. If Zhuge took risks like Jiang Wei did he also may have lead to the downfall of Shu. Instead Kongming lead attacks but didn't go all out. Zhuge because of this stategy keep Shu Han strong and didn't lose to Wei.

[TheGreatNads]

Yeah but Zhuge Liang didn't have to go against Deng Ai and Zhong Hui. He had to outwit the Simas There is a big difference there. Deng Ai and Zhong Hui were much better at military then everyone in the Sima clan.

[Ender]

Indeed Deng Ai was a very good military commander and was intellegent in the ways of war. But Jiang Wei's tactic's of fighting him again and again destroyed Shu. If Kongming had gone against Deng Ai rather than Sima Yi it would have been more interesting.

[TheGreatNads]

I doubt Zhuge Liang would of done anything noteworthy. He didn't do much against the Simas and he definately would fail against Deng Ai. Shu may of survived a little longer, but I doubt he could make a difference.

[Ender]

I have to disagree. Zhuge Liang wouldn't have fallen so easily. Jiang Wei's tactic's were some of the stupitest I've ever heard of. Kongming would have set up a defensive perimetter that would have withstanded the attacks of Deng Ai. And on his campaigns northern he wouldn't have lost as many troops as Jiang Wei. I belive Zhuge could have defeated Sima Yi if he took at least some risks instead he was afraid of losing.

[TheGreatNads]

I doubt Zhuge Liang would be able to withstand the attacks of Deng Ai and Zhong Hui. Like I said, Shu may have lasted longer but eventually they would of been destroyed. The only way I think Shu could of lasted, is if Wu came and gave them aid. That may of made a change, but still I think it's unlikely that either Shu or Wu could overcome Wei/Jin.(Whichever one it was at the time.)

[Ender]

O.k lets say your great general Wei Yan was in control of the defense and wasn't killed by Zhuge. Lets also say Shu and Wu worked togeather to stop any advance by Dang Ai. Since you refuse to give Zhuge credit for being anything of a commander this is probably the only way you belive Shu could have held out against Wei. Zhuge was a good defensive commander, just wasn't a great general to advance.

[TheGreatNads]

Yes but holding a defense against capable generals like Zhong Hui and Deng Ai would be difficult. Also, Liu Shan probably would have ended up surrendering anyway. Also if Wei Yan had lived, I doubt he would have made much of a difference, because Zhuge Liang probably wouldn't bother listening to him. Ok let's say Wei Yan could hold up a defense, and then what Zhuge Liang comes up with some plan to wipe Deng Ai? I doubt that. Though if Wei Yan would have controlled the defense and Liu Shan wouldn't have surrendered, and Wu would done something useful, then it's possible Shu/Wu could be victorious. But they would have to have a lot of things going in their favor.

What might be better, is if Zhuge Liang held the defense and Wei Yan and the armies of Wu attacked Wei(or Jin I can't remember which it was at that time). They may of been victorious then. Of course, that's assuming Zhuge Liang would listen to Wei Yan, and that pathetic fool Liu Shan wouldn't surrender or call Zhuge Liang or Wei Yan back to the capital.

[Ender]

True, Liu Shan was to stupit. He would have done somthing stupit like what you said. I also agree with sending Wei Yan forward. If he was as good as you think he may have made somthing happen. It also would have helped if Shu had Pang Tong in this situation.

Where's Jimayo when I need him.

[TheGreatNads]

It also would have helped if Shu had Pang Tong in this situation.

Or at least Li Yan.