Jiang Wei, the killer of a kingdom?

Best threads of the SGYYS, for your viewing pleasure.

Re: Jiang Wei, the killer of a kingdom?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed May 16, 2012 6:30 am

Zhang Yi? Even Liao Hua? Hou Yi. Probably be too much too soon for Lou Xian.
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 14776
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Re: Jiang Wei, the killer of a kingdom?

Unread postby Elitemsh » Wed May 16, 2012 11:09 am

Striga wrote:You missed Ma Su as well. Ego and leadership apparently don't go hand in hand. I guess the position simply drives them over the top.


I didn't mention Ma Su because firstly he wasn't a warrior and secondly the others did prove that they could defeat enemies given the right situation.

It is interesting how similar those three I mentioned were. Truly this was a common personality type of the time. Rafe de Crespigny points to this fact too. I guess the difference is that Guan Yu and Jiang Wei's egos led to disaster not just for them but more importantly the Shu kingdom. Wei Yan's just led to his own downfall but I think the difference is just because Wei Yan was kept in check by Liang. Truly then perhaps the scorn that especially Guan Yu and Jiang Wei receive is quite well deserved from a certain perspective. They both crippled the kingdom they were supposed to strengthen or perhaps simply to defend and ensure the survival of.
''I've never fought for anyone but myself. I've got no purpose in life. No ultimate goal. It's only when I'm cheating death on the battlefield. The only time I feel truly alive.'' ~Solid Snake
User avatar
Elitemsh
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1398
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 4:14 pm
Location: Outer Heaven

Re: Jiang Wei, the killer of a kingdom?

Unread postby Jordan » Thu May 17, 2012 4:23 am

Striga wrote:
Jordan wrote:I like the idea that Jiang Wei was completely toxic to Shu-Han though. Seems funny to me.

Not toxic. He was an intelligent person, with too much confidence, and enemies who were better commanders. Still, he managed to bring Zhong Hui and Deng Ai down with him.
There may have been a better commander than him, but he was the one who took on the role.


I was responding to the comment that Jiang Wei caused the death of Fei Yi and other such anomalies. I wasn't being serious at all as far as Jiang Wei being "toxic." He was probably damaging though.
User avatar
Jordan
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 5884
Joined: Thu Dec 02, 2004 4:52 am

Re: Jiang Wei, the killer of a kingdom?

Unread postby Aygor » Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:15 pm

In my opinion Jiang Wei did the right thing.
In my view, Shu was at a great disadvantage: Wu and Wei had better governaments and were much larger and had for that reason a better chance to draft or draw capable officers.
On the other hand while Yizhou was easy to defend, it had too little resources to stand on it's own against Wei, and as past times clearly demonstrated, they couldn't rely on Wu or fully trust them to cooperate.
It is then noteworthy that even if Shu actually spent time recovering, the gap of men ad resources between them and Wei (and of course Wu) would have become bigger and bigger in time becouse of sheer numbers of inhabitants and width of the land.
It basically was a matter of time before Shu's final collapse at the hands of Wei armies (or even Wu armies), 50-60 years? maybe more, most likely less.
Jiang Wei understood this point and had 2 options:
1) Survival for the said time hoping that something would have changed the status quo (an unlikely and bloody war between Wu and Wei maybe?).
2) Strive in continued attacks against Wei in a gamble that, at the cost of drastically draining their resources (and de facto nullifying any chance of a long last) would have given them the chance to gain land and defeat Wei's armies in the boarders strenghtening their position before they could actually organize a retaliation.
This plan was risky and had little chances to succeed and eventually failed, but was nonetheless, in my opinion, the only viable course of action, the Aristeia of the Han if you will.
分久必合,合久必分
Ἀτύφως μὲν λαβεῖν, εὐλύτως δὲ ἀφεῖναι
User avatar
Aygor
Langzhong
 
Posts: 536
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 5:09 pm

Re: Jiang Wei, the killer of a kingdom?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Jun 15, 2012 3:45 pm

Yes but how does the kingdom survive if the administration, which you took no time to help, is destroyed by corruption and your people riot against you?
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 14776
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Re: Jiang Wei, the killer of a kingdom?

Unread postby Aygor » Fri Jun 15, 2012 5:26 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:Yes but how does the kingdom survive if the administration, which you took no time to help, is destroyed by corruption and your people riot against you?

If Shu's governament and administration was sub-par it was Zhuge Liang's, Jiang Wan's, Fei Yi's and Dong Yun's fault as they were the regents and chancellors who actually worked on administration.
Jiang Wei only had military powers, and the ones to blame for corruption in ChengDu are Liu Shan and his pal Huang Hao, Zhuge Zhan, Qiao Zhou, Xi Zheng, Zong Yu and the other officials who didn't administrate internal affairs properly.
If Jiang Wei's gamble would have been successful then there would have been a chance to fix things up, in case of failure (and failure it was) doom would have been unavoidable anyway.
分久必合,合久必分
Ἀτύφως μὲν λαβεῖν, εὐλύτως δὲ ἀφεῖναι
User avatar
Aygor
Langzhong
 
Posts: 536
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 5:09 pm

Re: Jiang Wei, the killer of a kingdom?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Jun 16, 2012 6:25 am

Aygor wrote:
Dong Zhou wrote:Yes but how does the kingdom survive if the administration, which you took no time to help, is destroyed by corruption and your people riot against you?

If Shu's governament and administration was sub-par it was Zhuge Liang's, Jiang Wan's, Fei Yi's and Dong Yun's fault as they were the regents and chancellors who actually worked on administration.


Only they were dead. Kind of hard for them to fix their successors mess up as it was strong in their own life times.

Jiang Wei only had military powers,


No. He also had responsibility for political affairs and actually outranked the leading offical Chen Zhi. He was an ally of Huang Hao.

and the ones to blame for corruption in ChengDu are Liu Shan and his pal Huang Hao, Zhuge Zhan, Qiao Zhou, Xi Zheng, Zong Yu and the other officials who didn't administrate internal affairs properly.


Huang Hao was Jiang Wei's pal too :P

Qiao Zhou? I can only assume you haven't heard of his efforts? The man spent his (after Dong Yun's death) career fighting hard against Huang Hao, he was one of those who urged Jiang Wei to stay awhile and help sort out the corruption. Jiang Wei did nothing
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 14776
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Re: Jiang Wei, the killer of a kingdom?

Unread postby Aygor » Sat Jun 16, 2012 7:21 am

Dong Zhou wrote:
Aygor wrote:
Dong Zhou wrote:Yes but how does the kingdom survive if the administration, which you took no time to help, is destroyed by corruption and your people riot against you?

If Shu's governament and administration was sub-par it was Zhuge Liang's, Jiang Wan's, Fei Yi's and Dong Yun's fault as they were the regents and chancellors who actually worked on administration.

Only they were dead. Kind of hard for them to fix their successors mess up as it was strong in their own life times.

Shu had an inferior administration and a governament than Wu and Wei, that's what i meant, and surely that was not Jiang Wei's fault, rather it was his predecessors' fault as they were incapable of building a due governament for an empire.
If you will i'd like you to enlighten me on Boyue's administrative mess ups, as i don't recall him actually handling it much.

Jiang Wei only had military powers,

No. He also had responsibility for political affairs and actually outranked the leading offical Chen Zhi. He was an ally of Huang Hao.

Sure, but as he'd been far from the capital he didn't have any serious influence over internal matters, which were, if i remember correctly, Zhuge Zhan's and Huang Hao's business.
I would like to be enlightened on his friendship with Huang Hao too, becouse as far as i know the latter even plotted to have Boyue killed who in turn memorialized Liu Shan to execute the eunuch.

and the ones to blame for corruption in ChengDu are Liu Shan and his pal Huang Hao, Zhuge Zhan, Qiao Zhou, Xi Zheng, Zong Yu and the other officials who didn't administrate internal affairs properly.

Huang Hao was Jiang Wei's pal too :P

Qiao Zhou? I can only assume you haven't heard of his efforts? The man spent his (after Dong Yun's death) career fighting hard against Huang Hao, he was one of those who urged Jiang Wei to stay awhile and help sort out the corruption. Jiang Wei did nothing

I have always heard the contrary in these forums, and i know Huang Hao did all he could to replace Jiang Wei with Yan Yu so my guess is they were not. Even if they were though, that wouldn't mean that much as Jiang Wei spent most of those times in HanZhong attending other businesses.
Jiang Wei had a more important task at the time, how could he try to win a war and fix internal matters at the same time? it is a matter of priorities: if Jiang Wei had succeeded, he would have had a chance to fix it afterwards, if, as he did, he failed, doom awaited Shu-Han, henceforth dealing with internal matters was not his priority.
Fair, Qiao Zhou tried. What about the others? What about the other officials, ministers, advisors i didn't name? It was their responsibility and they failed it, definitely not Jiang Wei.

Still, my point isn't that he was perfect or peerless, but that he did the right thing.
Honestly when internal stuff went wrong he was not in the position to solve it, lest he drop his gamble against Wei: it was other officials in ChengDu who ought to have stepped up and do something, it is unfair to fault Jiang Wei for everything.
分久必合,合久必分
Ἀτύφως μὲν λαβεῖν, εὐλύτως δὲ ἀφεῖναι
User avatar
Aygor
Langzhong
 
Posts: 536
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 5:09 pm

Re: Jiang Wei, the killer of a kingdom?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Jun 16, 2012 12:53 pm

Shu had an inferior administration and a governament than Wu and Wei, that's what i meant, and surely that was not Jiang Wei's fault, rather it was his predecessors' fault as they were incapable of building a due governament for an empire.


Up to Dong Yun's death, any weaknesses are not Jiang Wei's fault. However the government was strong enough to survive and Shu even prospered. What happens afterwards is Jiang Wei's responsibility as was acknowledged by historians to follow and why he gained a reputation as a fame-gloryhog.

If you will i'd like you to enlighten me on Boyue's administrative mess ups, as i don't recall him actually handling it much.


Which is the entire point. He abdicated responsibility to his inferior Chen Zhi.

Which is fine for a time. When the talented Chen Zhi turns out to be corrupt and then Chen Zhi's successors, you have Qiao Zhou begging for help and your own officers urging you not to camapign, it is not fine.

Sure, but as he'd been far from the capital he didn't have any serious influence over internal matters, which were, if i remember correctly, Zhuge Zhan's and Huang Hao's business.


He was the most senior ranked offical in court, he would have had support from the likes of Qiao Zhou and Zhang Yi. He chose to spend his time away from court and not use his influence.

Nope, Jiang Wei's with Chen Zhi (then the successors) in support. Huang Hao's responsibility is more Liu Shan's needs then administrative, or was supposed to be.

I would like to be enlightened on his friendship with Huang Hao too, becouse as far as i know the latter even plotted to have Boyue killed who in turn memorialized Liu Shan to execute the eunuch.


I have always heard the contrary in these forums, and i know Huang Hao did all he could to replace Jiang Wei with Yan Yu so my guess is they were not.


When Dong Yun died, a deal was made and a triumvirate of sorts was formed: Jiang Wei, Chen Zhi and Huang Hao. They ran the country for Jiang Wei and would help ensure he could attack Wei as much as he liked. This lasted beyond Chen Zhi, Huang Hao ran the country and Jiang Wei ignored the pleas of others so got the resources to launch yet more attacks.

The deal only broke down when the people rioted on mass against Jiang Wei. Huang Hao then tried to get Jiang Wei sacked for Yan Yu, Jiang Wei complained to Liu Shan and the emperor backed Jiang Wei.

Jiang Wei had a more important task at the time, how could he try to win a war and fix internal matters at the same time? it is a matter of priorities: if Jiang Wei had succeeded, he would have had a chance to fix it afterwards, if, as he did, he failed, doom awaited Shu-Han, henceforth dealing with internal matters was not his priority.


So that is where Cao Cao, Zhuge Liang, Sun Ce, Sun Quan, Cao Pi and co went wrong! :wink:

Now I'm not asking Jiang Wei to write epic poetry, rewrite the law system and winning epic battles. Cao Cao, Zhuge Liang and co are exceptions and in Liang's case, it wasn't healthy. Delegating to Chen Zhi, though not the deal, made sense. However once it was clear Chen Zhi and Huang Hao were corrupt, killing Shu on the inside, Jiang Wei should have stopped camapign for a few years and changed things in Shu.

If Jiang Wei's priority was as you say, then he got it wrong. To use the old phrase, the corrupt alliance (of which Jiang was a part) was killing Shu like a cancer. You don't allow cancer, as far as I know, to grow and because if a cancer isn't deal with quickly, it kills. Taking over Wei was an outside chance at any time, the important thing was to ensure Shu's survival till that chance emerged. Without a good administration, Shu would die.If things are wrong internally, the first priority of the leading figures should be to fix it.

Fair, Qiao Zhou tried. What about the others? What about the other officials, ministers, advisors i didn't name? It was their responsibility and they failed it, definitely not Jiang Wei.


Oh they failed. Liu Shan's laziness is the first man to blame. Huang Hao second but Jiang Wei is third. If the chief minister in a government, the number 1 man, ignores corruption and just goes on several foreign tours then said chief man takes the blame.

Yes Zhuge Zhan deserves considerable blame, Xi Zheng did oppose Huang Hao to a lesser extent then. Zong Yu was a simple general/diplomat but seems to have suffered from weariness judging by his comment to Liao Hua so would give him a lesser blame.

Still, my point isn't that he was perfect or peerless, but that he did the right thing.
Honestly when internal stuff went wrong he was not in the position to solve it, lest he drop his gamble against Wei: it was other officials in ChengDu who ought to have stepped up and do something, it is unfair to fault Jiang Wei for everything.


I think most of us would blame a British Prime Minister/US President if there was corruption in his government and he ignored it for military or foreign policy. I certainly would blame the leading man in a government for it. Heck, I would also blame the Chancellor as well if he ignored corruption
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 14776
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Re: Jiang Wei, the killer of a kingdom?

Unread postby Aygor » Sat Jun 16, 2012 2:46 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:...

Ugh, i did not know abut the associacion of Huang Hao, Jiang Wei and Chen Zhi.
I still hold on to my opinion, as Shu wasn't going to last, waging war was if not the rightful choice, at least a very reasonable one and as once this course of action is choosen it becomes a priority i do think that giving up governament issues to other officers was fine.
Yet as he himself picked corrupted officials, he had the responsibility to remove them and save the country before waging war.
I thought that corrupted officials rose in rank exploiting his absence, and that therefore blame was on ministers and such who let it happen, not on Boyue himself, but of course no officer in ChengDu could efficiently fight officials appointed from the prime minister.
Now, i don't think his choices were wrong per se, but he damn lacked the judgement of character which is the gap between good leaders and good vassals, he wasn't cut for his position.
Thank you for the enlightement, it was very appreciated
分久必合,合久必分
Ἀτύφως μὲν λαβεῖν, εὐλύτως δὲ ἀφεῖναι
User avatar
Aygor
Langzhong
 
Posts: 536
Joined: Fri Oct 28, 2011 5:09 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Sanguo Yanyi Symposium Archives

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved