Jiang Wei, the killer of a kingdom?

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Re: Jiang Wei, the killer of a kingdom?

Unread postby Gray Riders » Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:17 am

Hyper90 wrote:i don't recall wei yan have good defensive plans. but im sure he won't be using Zhuge liang's crossbows to defend the country because he dont even know how to build it

If I'm not mistaken, Wei Yan was in charge of defending Hanzhong at one point and set up the defensive plans Shu used to good success until Jiang Wei replaced them with his that were were designed to allow easier counterattacks (and then Shu fell; whether Jiang Wei's new plans are partly to blame is up for debate).
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Re: Jiang Wei, the killer of a kingdom?

Unread postby Striga » Tue Nov 22, 2011 3:17 am

He never had a chance to see them. However, if he saw the blueprints, he would have made the repeating crossbows. I wonder if Kongming Lantern's could have been used as a weapon. Just put a bit of tar into them and they could become incendiary bombs.
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Re: Jiang Wei, the killer of a kingdom?

Unread postby Shen Ai » Tue Nov 22, 2011 10:08 am

Gray Riders wrote:
Hyper90 wrote:i don't recall wei yan have good defensive plans. but im sure he won't be using Zhuge liang's crossbows to defend the country because he dont even know how to build it

If I'm not mistaken, Wei Yan was in charge of defending Hanzhong at one point and set up the defensive plans Shu used to good success until Jiang Wei replaced them with his that were were designed to allow easier counterattacks (and then Shu fell; whether Jiang Wei's new plans are partly to blame is up for debate).


Wei Yan's plans mainly centred around defending Hanzhong and using the terrain as the best defence. It worked for quite few years, but Jiang Wei argued that nothing could be gained from such a plan. He used a different plan that allowed the enemy to be drawn in, before he ambushed them and trapped them. However, Deng Ai and Zhong Hui foiled his plans when they split into two forces and crashing through him. He let the enemy into Shu far to deep and his plan was worthless by then. Defending Hanzhong might not have saved them but it could buy some time.
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Re: Jiang Wei, the killer of a kingdom?

Unread postby Striga » Wed Nov 23, 2011 1:30 am

Jiang Wei believed he could outsmart and outfight Deng Ai. He was proved wrong. Had he simply defended Hanzhong, the same would have happened, but Deng Ai would have had a harder time seeing as how he would not have an open field towards the Shu capital.
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Re: Jiang Wei, the killer of a kingdom?

Unread postby Shen Ai » Wed Nov 23, 2011 10:09 pm

Most probably. By then, Jiang Wei had used up a lot of resources and moral was low, so defending Hanzhong might not have saved SHu, but it might paint a more heroic defence image for Jiang Wei. Instead, Zhuge Zhan got that honour.
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Re: Jiang Wei, the killer of a kingdom?

Unread postby Striga » Thu Nov 24, 2011 2:09 am

Is it an honour when your blood line is cut down in a last ditch defence to try to make up for the mistake of another? Jiang Wei is still more well known. Zhuge Zhan is only known for being Kongming's son, and that last ditch effort which didn't portray him nicely.
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Re: Jiang Wei, the killer of a kingdom?

Unread postby Shen Ai » Thu Nov 24, 2011 9:59 am

I don't agree with it but sacrifice is still considered by many as the epitome of honour and bravery. Jiang Wei still fled and surrendered then rebelled and died. Not a good image either.
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Re: Jiang Wei, the killer of a kingdom?

Unread postby Striga » Thu Nov 24, 2011 10:53 pm

Jiang Wei's image is worse, true, but for the most part, Jiang Wei was shown as able, and his loss was attributed to Liu Shan telling him to retreat when it really didn't matter.
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Re: Jiang Wei, the killer of a kingdom?

Unread postby Shen Ai » Thu Nov 24, 2011 11:13 pm

Yeah, maybe. Also Zhuge Zhan had a son who survived and lived to become a vassal of Jin. Zhuge Jing or something?
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Re: Jiang Wei, the killer of a kingdom?

Unread postby Striga » Sat Nov 26, 2011 8:57 pm

I only heard of his elder son, Zhuge Shang, but yes, there was Zhuge Jing, who joined Jin after Wei's collapse according to SGZ. That means Liang's bloodline wasn't all cut down. :P
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