Jiang Wei, the killer of a kingdom?

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Re: Jiang Wei, the killer of a kingdom?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Jun 16, 2012 3:58 pm

Aygor wrote:I still hold on to my opinion, as Shu wasn't going to last, waging war was if not the rightful choice, at least a very reasonable one and as once this course of action is choosen it becomes a priority i do think that giving up governament issues to other officers was fine.


I agree but as ever up to a point. It was one of those polices that works well as long as you don't take it too far. I do feel Jiang Wan and Fei Yi were overly cautoius

Yet as he himself picked corrupted officials, he had the responsibility to remove them and save the country before waging war.
I thought that corrupted officials rose in rank exploiting his absence, and that therefore blame was on ministers and such who let it happen, not on Boyue himself, but of course no officer in ChengDu could efficiently fight officials appointed from the prime minister.


Indeed and fair enough.

I think Shu's situation was a bit strange in one way. They usually combined civil and military into one man (Liang, Jiang Wan) then sort of split it off with Jiang Wei as the military army of Fei Yi and Dong Yun, who was the last PM. When Dong Yun died, Jiang Wei becomes head as the CIC (since Liu Shan's ruling was... lax) with Chen Zhi as his civil arm. I find the army guy being head and the civil guy the junior to be strange, maybe just me though.

Now, i don't think his choices were wrong per se, but he damn lacked the judgement of character which is the gap between good leaders and good vassals, he wasn't cut for his position.


Chen Zhi as the civil arm seems to be a good choice at the time. His talent was unquestioned, seemed to be the guy Dong Yun wanted as Jiang's civil man... it just that he turned corrupt. Likewise the deal in itself didn't have to be a bad: get around the table your emperor's closest friend, the best civil officer and yourself and agree some sort of delegated authority to allow you to do what you do best. It is just what it turned into

I agree Jiang Wei wasn't cut out for his position, had he remained a carefully controlled military arm for a power civil offical, he would probably be remembered very well due to his abilities in battle. What I dislike is the feeling he didn't try to fix things rather then he failed

Thank you for the enlightement, it was very appreciated


Sorry about the tone of my last post :oops:
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
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Re: Jiang Wei, the killer of a kingdom?

Unread postby Aygor » Sat Jun 16, 2012 5:36 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:
Thank you for the enlightement, it was very appreciated

Sorry about the tone of my last post :oops:

Nothing to be excused at all, i learned many interesting pieces of information.
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Re: Jiang Wei, the killer of a kingdom?

Unread postby Cao Chao » Mon Jun 18, 2012 2:57 pm

I think Shu's situation was a bit strange in one way. They usually combined civil and military into one man (Liang, Jiang Wan) then sort of split it off with Jiang Wei as the military army of Fei Yi and Dong Yun, who was the last PM. When Dong Yun died, Jiang Wei becomes head as the CIC (since Liu Shan's ruling was... lax) with Chen Zhi as his civil arm. I find the army guy being head and the civil guy the junior to be strange, maybe just me though.

The issue here is that Jiang Wei was largely wholly disinterested in civil matters. And by the time that Dong Yun died, he was the highest ranking official in the Kingdom and as a result took control with Chen Zhi as his junior in charge of civil affairs.

It's partly a result of modern political structure where the norm is having the military as under the civil apparatus.
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Re: Jiang Wei, the killer of a kingdom?

Unread postby Iain » Wed Sep 28, 2016 5:16 am

I enjoyed reading this timeless topic and many good explanations where brought up here, all I cant really wonder is how Jiang Wei felt stepping into the position Zhuge once was in, and realizing he had less to count on than his predecessor and Wei was still that huge force to get by.

It must have seemed very daunting to the man and if nothing else I admire his determination to try and succeed, he was definately loyal to his kingdom and wanted the best for them.
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