Differences between Three Kingdoms novel and history…

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Re: Differences between Three Kingdoms novel and history…

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:11 am

Hyper90 wrote:i read that shanyue tribes are a constant annoyance to Wu.

how much of a threat they could be to Wu?


are the Shanyue even in the novel? I'm not sure threat is the right word, more irritant
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Re: Differences between Three Kingdoms novel and history…

Unread postby Elitemsh » Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:10 pm

Qu Hui wrote:Elitemsh, Dong is referring to the large-scale revolt in the Nanyang area at the end of 218, led by Hou Yin, and not the failed coup by Geng Ji and co.
The ZZTJ, Chapter 68 wrote:The people of Nanyang were suffering under forced labour services. In the
winter, in the tenth month the officer of the garrison at Wan, Hou Yin, led a
mutiny.
The Grand Administrator of Nanyang, Dongli Gun, and his Officer of the
Bureau of Merit Ying Yu fought fiercely and managed to escape. Hou Yin
sent horsemen after them, and arrows came from every direction. Ying Yu
protected Dongli Gun with his body, he was hit seven times, and he died.
Hou Yin's horsemen captured Dongli Gun and brought him back.
At this time the General Who Subdues the South Cao Ren was camped at
Fan to guard Jing province. King Cao of WEI ordered him to go back and
attack Hou Yin.16
The Officer of the Bureau of Merit Zong Ziqing said to Hou Yin,17 "You
accord with the people's hearts, and have taken up a great affair. All men
far and near attend your actions. Yet you still hold the leader of the
commandery. That is an act of rebellion which gains you nothing. Why not
send him away?" Hou Yin did so.
Then Zong Ziqing climbed over the city wall by night, joined the Grand
Administrator, and together they collected the rest of the people to besiege
Hou Yin. Soon afterwards Cao Ren's army arrived to join the attack.

The revolt had not been quelled as of Guan Yu's attack, as evidenced by Man Chong's statement here:
The ZZTJ, Chapter 68 wrote:The Grand Administrator of Runan, Man Chong, said,33 "The mountain
waters came swiftly, and we can hope they will go down just as fast. I hear
that Guan Yu has already sent a detachment towards Jia,34 and the whole
area south of Xu city is disturbed..."


Thanks for the info but i don't see how that quote proves that the revolt had not been put down before Guan Yu attacked. Regardless even if the rebellion had been put down before Guan mobilised, i do see the point about taking advantage of unrest about the region. Wei were clearly having some issues with mutinies in the areas surrounding Fan and this was the second one in a pretty short period. If there was ever a time to attack it was when Guan attacked. From the evidence provided earlier and just recently i think there is every chance that Guan Yu timed his attack by taking advantage of unrest (the revolts) and the rising water level. The unrest about the region allowed him to gain the support of bandits and strenghtened his army considerably while the rising water level took care of Yu Jin's large army. I have to admit that i have a lot more respect for Guan Yu than ever before in regards to this campaign.

That being said he was still outsmarted and defeated by Xu Huang who was controlling weak troops and of course he was also thoroughly tricked by Wu. However instead of being so critical of Guan Yu perhaps it is best to admire the skill of Xu Huang, Lu Meng and Lu Xun. It is not like Guan Yu was beaten by bums. He was defeated by some of the best talents in both Wei and Shu.

The real problem with Guan Yu's military record for me isn't his final defeat but his earlier defeats to Yue Jin, Wen Pin and Li Tong. They all happened at the time when Wu was attacking Cao Ren at Jiangling. There is no detail at all on any of the battles however and so it is very hard to praise or criticise Guan Yu here. It is possible that Guan Yu was defeated fair and square (and thus one can't really say he was a skilful general) but it also possible that Guan Yu was at a disadvantage in the battles. I think we all know of examples where battles were officially defeats but the general involved was at a disadvantage and so there were extenuating circumstances and these must always be considered.

For one thing, in those battles Guan Yu was ordered to attack those targets and so that immediately puts him at a possible disavantage because he is on foreign ground whereas his enemies are on their own turf. Of course this is just speculation and it could just as easily be different. My point though is that because there are no details on these ealier battles they cannot be used as a real indicator of Guan Yu's ability as a general simply because of a serious lack of information. No one can make an informed opinion if they lack the necessary details.

My opinion is that based on the information that we have available, Guan Yu was a good general. I still think there were one or two better generals in Shu but Guan Yu was still one of their best.
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Re: Differences between Three Kingdoms novel and history…

Unread postby Hyper90 » Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:23 pm

in the novel Ma chao had his 200k army beat cao cao's 300k

was that true according to history ? if yes how'd he get all those troops? qiangs ?
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take a look please
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Re: Differences between Three Kingdoms novel and history…

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:24 pm

The numbers are probably exaggerated, given the sgz is liable to it, no surprise the novel does either
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Re: Differences between Three Kingdoms novel and history…

Unread postby Elitemsh » Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:49 pm

Hyper90 wrote:in the novel Ma chao had his 200k army beat cao cao's 300k

was that true according to history ? if yes how'd he get all those troops? qiangs ?


It is impossible for Ma Chao to have had even half that number. He controlled only part of one province. IMO a more realistic number for Ma Chao's is about 20000 troops with a strong cavalry section. Ma Chao would have had a greater propotion of cavalry than most other armies.
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Re: Differences between Three Kingdoms novel and history…

Unread postby Hyper90 » Mon Feb 14, 2011 4:49 pm

now i see why ma chao is awarded Divine Cavalry in RTKXI
truely a great horseman.


what about Wen Yang?
in the novel he is quite a fighter but lack of general compatible.
what about his historic side?
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Re: Differences between Three Kingdoms novel and history…

Unread postby ROTK-addict » Thu May 26, 2011 8:21 am

May I know from which source stated that Lady Sun was not loyal or that she creates havoc? I tried looking at Fa Zheng and Zhao Yun bio but can't seem to spot it. It will be helpful if anyone could highlight the particular sentence that states so. :oops:
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Re: Differences between Three Kingdoms novel and history…

Unread postby Lady Wu » Thu May 26, 2011 8:37 am

ROTK-addict wrote:May I know from which source stated that Lady Sun was not loyal or that she creates havoc? I tried looking at Fa Zheng and Zhao Yun bio but can't seem to spot it. It will be helpful if anyone could highlight the particular sentence that states so. :oops:

Pei Songzhi's note 2 in Zhao Yun's bio: http://kongming.net/novel/sgz/zhaoyun.php
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Re: Differences between Three Kingdoms novel and history…

Unread postby ROTK-addict » Thu May 26, 2011 12:29 pm

Thanks Lady Wu. I didn't know those notes are clickable. Silly me. :oops: Hmmm but we won't know for sure what kinda "troubles" those guards are causing? Cause I felt that it's quite weird since if they are hired as guards, I'm sure they had to be disciplined. And was it possible that when she took Liu Shan with her, it was cause she bonded with him as mother and son and not due to any ill intentions? I know it's just a theory and probably have no backings from any historical texts. so I apologise first for asking so many questions :oops: So many questions in my mind but lack of resources in my place :(
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Re: Differences between Three Kingdoms novel and history…

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri May 27, 2011 11:33 am

Hmmm but we won't know for sure what kinda "troubles" those guards are causing? Cause I felt that it's quite weird since if they are hired as guards, I'm sure they had to be disciplined.


No idea. The bodyguards were presumably disciplined enough that they would protect Lady Sun, her armed handmaids as well, but this doesn't mean they were going to be well behaved outside that. There wasn't a huge amount of respect for Shu itself and away from Quan may have allowed them to get away with more things.

And was it possible that when she took Liu Shan with her, it was cause she bonded with him as mother and son and not due to any ill intentions?


Possibly that was part of it but she would have surely been aware of the consequences of such a move.
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