Differences between Three Kingdoms novel and history…

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Unread postby Kong Renkuai » Tue Jan 07, 2003 11:33 pm

Zhou Tai wrote:Question: If Guan Xing was not a warrior? how could he of killed Pan Zhang and claim Guan Yu's weapon back, or did he pursue and no i dont believe in the Guan Yu ghost theory.

Guan Suo, also made up i believe....no historical data.


Guan Xing didn't kill Pan Zhang, though I'm not sure how he historically died.
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Unread postby DarkAnthem » Tue Jan 07, 2003 11:46 pm

Pan Zhang either died of natural causes or illness; his SGZ bio only mentions the year he died. And according to ZZTJ, he was still alive after Liu Bei lost at Yi Ling, so Guan Xing didn't kill him during the battle.
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Unread postby William » Wed Jan 08, 2003 12:49 am

1. Tai Shi died before the Battle of ChiBi;
2. Hua Tuo died in 208 AD, the one who heal Guan Yu's arm was some other doctor;
3. the lead person in "dan dao yan" was Lu Su, not Guan Yu;
4. Zhou Cang was a made up character;
5. Yang Xiu died after Liu Bei invasion of HanZhong, not during it;
6. Zhang Bao died before Zhang Fei;
7. Huang Zhong was not invole in the Battle of YiLing, he died before it happen;
8. the one who defeat Ma Su at JIe Ting was Zhang He, not Sima Yi;
9. "kong cheng ji" was use by Wen Pin to trick the Wu's army, Zhuge LIang did not use it on Sima Yi
10. Zhuge LIang did not plot to kill Wei Yan before his death....
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Unread postby Han Xin » Wed Jan 08, 2003 9:40 am

William wrote:10. Zhuge LIang did not plot to kill Wei Yan before his death....


:lol: Then why do you think he asked Wei Yan to attack the fortress of ChenCang in deep winter? Called me paranoid if you like but, Sun Bin's 3rd stratagems? Killing with a borrow knife?

Anyhow, here is my share....

1. Liu Cong was not Lady Cai's son, but rather he married to one of her niece. Probably Cai Mao's daughter... don't know.

2. Cai Mao was more of a civil officer rather than a Naval commander.

3. Chen Deng was a good general, not like a little weasle shown in SGYY. He defeated Sun Ce (twice?).

4. Lady Mi was not Liu Bei wife more like his mistress. However she die years before Liu Bei defeated in DangYang, probably to the lack of love shown by Liu Bei... :lol:

5. Liu Bei troops at YiLing was more like 40,000 rather than 700,000 (I know what Great Dear would said, but I can't see how Liu Bei could mustered 80,000 from a population of lest than 1 million). :lol:
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Unread postby William » Thu Jan 09, 2003 12:43 am

Han Xin wrote: :lol: Then why do you think he asked Wei Yan to attack the fortress of ChenCang in deep winter? Called me paranoid if you like but, Sun Bin's 3rd stratagems? Killing with a borrow knife?

Hmmm..yah, maybe Zhuge Liang should have send someone else, Wei Yan did not manage to capture ChengCang at the end....LOL

OK back to topic
1. Liu Bei was 24 years old when he was supressing the Yellow Turban Rebellion, not 28 years old;
2. Guan Yu did not ask Cao Cao for any promises (3) when he surrendered at XiaPi;
3. Lu Su was a military commander not a civil officer;
4. Cao Cao had 25 sons instead only 5 (Ang, Pi, Zhang, Zhi and Xiong), and Cao Yu was Cao Cao's son not Cao Pi...;
5. Liu Bei had more children instead of 3 sons only (Shan, Li and Yong), he had daughters but were capture by Cao Chun at ChangBan slope;
6. Zhuge Liang did not use any trick to capture JIangLiang and XIangYang after the battle of ChiBi, it was Zhou Yu who spent 1 year to capture it;
7. Pang Tong was not capable in governing little province (LiYang);
8. Gan Ning was not killed during the Battle of YiLing by ShaMo Ke;
9. Xu Huang was not killed by Meng Da;
10. Wang Lang was not killed during Zhuge Liang first Northen Expedition.
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Unread postby Han Xin » Thu Jan 09, 2003 1:00 pm

William wrote:Hmmm..yah, maybe Zhuge Liang should have send someone else, Wei Yan did not manage to capture ChengCang at the end....LOL

:lol: If its an attack in autumn or spring Wei Yan would have taken both ChenCang and ChangAn in no time. It is Generalissimo Zhuge's fault to attack a fortress during deep winter, during a time when supplies are low, the troops are cold and tired, its a recipe for disaster. :x

Here is another lot from the Great Han Xin.

  1. Zhuge Liang never argued with the southern scholars during his visit to Wu before the great battle of Chi Bi. The only incident where I could found anything remotely confrontational between Wu and Shu scholar was an event in by the visit of Shu's envoyed Zhang Feng. However, the honour was even during that visit.
  2. Wei Yan never leave Liu Cong when Liu Bei come to Xiang Yang. He also never killed Han Xian to save Huang Zhong. Han Xian surrendered ChangSha by himself.
  3. Wei Yan served under Zhang Fei for a brief period before Liu Bei taken Han Zhong. Unlike SGYY which made Wei Yan out to be all brute and no brain, Wei Yan was often suggested good stratagems to help Zhang Fei defending BaXi and was very highly regard by Zhang Fei.
  4. Historically, Lu Bu served Ding Yuan then killed Ding Yuan to join Dong Zhuo. He killed Dong Zhuo but was chase out of Chang An by Dong Zhuo's men. He later join Yuan Shu then left Yuan Shu as well, later he serve Yuan Shao but left before Yuan Shao would killed him. He later got captured by Cao Cao and was killed.
  5. Nanman rebelled against Shu atleast twice during Zhuge Liang "dictatorial" controlled of Shu and after the army of Zhuge Liang "liberated" Nanman. :lol:
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Unread postby DarkAnthem » Thu Jan 09, 2003 6:26 pm

Here's a few off the top of my head:

1. In the novel Zhou Yu wanted to pretend to take Yi Zhou to try to take Jing Zhou from Liu Bei, but in SGZ Zhou Yu did plan to take Yi Zhou, marching from Jiang Ling; in his bio it never indicates he had any plans to take Jing Zhou. He died of illness when he was preparing for the invasion. Whether he died because of the earlier wounds are not specified. After Zhou Yu's death, Lu Su convinced Sun Quan to borrow Jiang Ling to Liu Bei because he thought no one else could carry out the invasion on Yi Zhou but Zhou Yu.

2. Pang Tong did not convince Cao Cao to tie the ships together during Chi Bi, Cao Cao decided to do that himself because many soldiers were ill.

3. Zhuge Liang didn’t defeat Xiahou Dun at Xinye, Liu Bei did.

4. In the novel Ma Chao defeated Zhong Yao and took Chang An before getting defeated by Cao Cao. In SGZ there’s no indication of Ma Chao ever taking Chang An. And Ma Chao never dueled Xu Chu or Zhang Fei in history.

5. Sima Yi didn’t defeat Ma Su at Jieting. Zhang He did. Sima Yi was not involved in defending against the northern campaigns of Kong Ming until the forth and fifth campaign.

6. In history, Wu was the main aggressor towards Wei, unlike how it seems in the novel. After Liu Bei’s death, Shu was not considered a threat by Wei until Kong Ming attacked.
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Unread postby William » Fri Jan 10, 2003 12:54 am

Han Xin wrote: :lol: If its an attack in autumn or spring Wei Yan would have taken both ChenCang and ChangAn in no time. It is Generalissimo Zhuge's fault to attack a fortress during deep winter, during a time when supplies are low, the troops are cold and tired, its a recipe for disaster. :x

Other commander also send their men in winter to fought in war...eg. Battle of ChiBi, invading of JingZhou, attacking of RuXu, etc...LOL
WOW...you make Wei Yan like the God of War...hehee...even Zhou Yu took 1 year to capture JiangLing...Wei Yan can take ChenCang + ChangAn in no time..LOL

Ok...here are some more...
1. Liu, Guan and Zhang were not sworn brother;
2. Guan Yu only slay Yan Liang, Wen Chou was killed by Cao Cao's plot;
3. Cao Cao became Prime Minister after 207~208, not before that;
4. Xun You was not "killed" by Cao Cao, he died of illness;
5. out of 100%, 99% of the duel were made up...LOL
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Unread postby Mega Zarak » Fri Jan 10, 2003 2:11 am

William wrote:3. Cao Cao became Prime Minister after 207~208, not before that;

It was actually during the 6th month of Jian An 13th Year (208 A.D.) according to Cao Cao's SGZ biography. :D
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Unread postby Jiang Zhi » Fri Jan 10, 2003 4:28 am

I heard somewhere that the Empty City Strategen wasn't employed by Zhuge Liang but by someone else to Sun Quan or something?
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