Liu Bei’s desires in regards to Liu Shan’s future...

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Unread postby Big Blu » Sat Jun 26, 2004 1:17 am

Yes, but Liu Bei told Zhuge Liang to seize power if Liu Shan was weak, but Zhuge Liang was too loyal to Shu to do so.
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Unread postby Exar Kun » Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:51 am

There was little choice other than to install Liu Shan.One of Liu Bei's most prominent features is that he is trying to recreate the old Han.
As such there must be Liu blood on the throne.And the eldest true blood Liu was Liu Shan.
To appoint Kongming would be to undermine the legitimacy of his dynasty,which was named Han in history.How can a non-Liu rule Han if Liu Bei claims to be clinging to Han tradition?

That's the same reason for Liu Feng not succeeding.He is not rue blooded Liu and so if he succeeds,the enemies of Shu have a weapon to use to undermine Shu's legitimacy as the successor to the Han.

That said though,I don't believe that Liu bei and Zhuge Liang did right by Liu Feng at all.Historically they decided that Feng might someday oppose Shan;s succession and so they ordered him to committ suicide.Feng was never involved in any treason at Shang Dang.Meng Da was in fact wary of betraying Shu because Liu Feng,his supervisor was very vigilant.
While Liu Feng did present a danger as he technically is the eldest 'son' even though not a born Liu such a danger could be deflected by the powerful ministers that Shu had.
They certainly didn't do right by him,making him committ suicide over their personal fears.
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Mon Apr 25, 2005 11:38 am

ZGL getting the throne would just throw away the claims of Han legitcamy and cuase internal choas which one of Wei or Wu would take advantage off.

There was no real reason to despose of LiuShan, he was hardly a tyrant and he let those he belived to have talent, run the kingdom. Besides, who else to take the throne from the Liu line? Liu Feng aside. Then what? Choas and Shu loses anyway
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Unread postby yongrenjie » Sat Jun 16, 2007 3:19 pm

Liu Bei had three sons: Liu Shan the idiot, Liu Yong and Liu Li.

Liu Shan had seven sons: : Liu Xuan, Liu Yao, Liu Cong, Liu Zan, Liu Chen, Liu Xun and Liu Qian. SGYY says out of these seven children, only Liu Chen was clever and told his father not to surrender. His father didn't listen and he committed suicide.

And for those who can understand Chinese,

http://www.zisi.net/htm/xzwj/lyrwj/2005-11-17-34471.htm
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Unread postby Kasumi14 » Tue Mar 11, 2008 1:51 pm

There was little choice other than to install Liu Shan.One of Liu Bei's most prominent features is that he is trying to recreate the old Han.
As such there must be Liu blood on the throne.And the eldest true blood Liu was Liu Shan.
To appoint Kongming would be to undermine the legitimacy of his dynasty,which was named Han in history.How can a non-Liu rule Han if Liu Bei claims to be clinging to Han tradition?



But choosing the eldest son to inherit the throne isn't really neccessary - Sun Quan has two sons, Sun He and Sun Ba, while Sun He is the crown prince, it's clear that Sun Quan favor goest to Sun Ba. He even went as far as reprimanding Lu Xun numerous times for his support towards the crown prince..does this means if the emperor has a favor towards his other son beside his eldest, he still can appoint him?*you can regard this more as a question rather than statement if you want - I'm still a newcomer to SGZ, so forgive me if there's something wrong.*
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Mar 11, 2008 5:59 pm

Problem is, combined with Quan's descent into senility, that heir issue really hurt Wu. The infighting resulted in the deaths of many minsters, princes and gave the empress a chance to fight each other. An entertaining mess but one that never really seems to have been reversed

Not sure if Wu rules were different to Han rules which I believe insisted on the eldest son as successor to the throne
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Unread postby Kasumi14 » Wed Mar 12, 2008 11:06 am

Oh...I thought that, if Liu Bei has gone as far as giving his will to ZGL to actually take the throne if Liu Shan proves incompetent because he already suspects that Liu Shan is incapable for it, he should just appoint his other son that he thought more capable than Liu Shan...

Why is that Liu Bei, even before his death, seems to disagree with Liu Shan?Even since Liu Shan was an infant, Liu Bei seems not really care with Liu Shan as his important heir..
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Mar 12, 2008 2:42 pm

I think the problem is Liu Bei really doesn't have much of a base till a fair bit into Liu Shan's childhood, as soon as he had Shu, he found the best tutors in the province for his son. Indeed before he died, he admitted he was worried for Shan and his brothers

Then there is parenting as a whole in the sgz, only if the child does something remarkable (Cao Chong for example) involving father or has importance like a succession clash in Wei do we see them much together. Cao Cao seems closer to his sons then others but Liu Bei could easily be as well
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Unread postby Mikhail » Wed Mar 12, 2008 5:13 pm

Kasumi14 wrote:Oh...I thought that, if Liu Bei has gone as far as giving his will to ZGL to actually take the throne if Liu Shan proves incompetent because he already suspects that Liu Shan is incapable for it, he should just appoint his other son that he thought more capable than Liu Shan...

Why is that Liu Bei, even before his death, seems to disagree with Liu Shan?Even since Liu Shan was an infant, Liu Bei seems not really care with Liu Shan as his important heir..


That would never have worked. I'd even go as far as to say that Zhuge Liang taking the throne would be more plausible and keep the land for Shu stable than a Shu with a younger brother as king.

Ill give two examples. Jin and Yuan Shao. When Jin took over Wei there weren't any real internal threats to the new empire. When Yuan Shao however named Shang as his heir, Tan rebelled.

Sure Shan wouldn't have been as power hungry as Tan, but the same thing could have happened. Usually whenever a younger brother gains the throne, chaos ensues.

Zhuge Liang was a trusted and revered person by everyone in the Shu kingdom. He already basically the de facto leader of Shu anyway. And he's done way too many good things for the kingdom. The top officers I would think would be loyal to Liu Bei more than the Han and if Liu Bei wanted Zhuge to be king, they wouldn't mind.
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Mar 12, 2008 5:29 pm

Completely ruins their political argument and the way Dynasty's work though
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