On Cao Cao and treachery

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On Cao Cao and treachery

Unread postby Jimayo » Tue Dec 31, 2002 5:27 pm

I'm sure we've all heard people say Cao Cao is a traitor, and those who say he wasn't, but here's some solid evidence for you.

1. The person to receive the nine gifts prior to Cao Cao was... Wang Mang.

2. The title of King was reserved for members of the imperial family only. You had to be a Liu to get this title. Only two emperors ever gave it out to those not of the imperial family, and the men who received it were eventually executed for.... treason.
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Unread postby Tianshan Zi » Tue Dec 31, 2002 7:08 pm

Very interesting observations. Perhaps Cao Cao was a traitor? But also perhaps the Han was unworthy of further allegiance? :)
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Unread postby KINGSHAMOKE71 » Tue Dec 31, 2002 7:29 pm

Or maybe Cao was a traitor. Which he was.
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Unread postby Jimayo » Tue Dec 31, 2002 8:14 pm

Technically, he would be a traitor to the han.
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Unread postby Chu Liu Xiang » Tue Dec 31, 2002 9:33 pm

and the US was a traitor to Britain.
Point being?
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Unread postby Cheng YU » Tue Dec 31, 2002 11:30 pm

Cao Cao's a traitor to...han and Dong Zhuo. But compare to Liu Bei he is nothing...not even close. Liu Bei was a traitor to Liu Zhang's father, Lu Bu, Cao Cao, Yuan Shao, Liu Zhang, Liu Biao, Sun Quan, and Han...if he's loyal to han, why don't he make one of Han's heir emperor instead of himself? (and the heir was not killed, just banished by Cao Pi).

So Cao Cao was a traitor, but he's normal in the era. The ones who weren't traitors were abnormal. Taishi Ci's a traitor. Gan Ning's a traitor. Sun Ce's a traitor. Lu Bu's a traitor. Zhang Liao's a bigger traitor. Xu Huang too.
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Unread postby KINGSHAMOKE71 » Wed Jan 01, 2003 12:21 am

Liu Bei betrayed Sun Quan? How exactly did he do that?
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Unread postby Chu Liu Xiang » Wed Jan 01, 2003 12:40 am

KINGSHAMOKE71 wrote:Liu Bei betrayed Sun Quan? How exactly did he do that?


I would suppose betraying Sun Quan's trust that Liu Bei would hand Jing Zhou to him.
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Unread postby Cheng YU » Wed Jan 01, 2003 1:30 am

Yup...he promised to return JIn, and with papers too...but he never did. If Quan hadn't used force Jin would be Liu Bei's forever.
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Unread postby Starscream » Wed Jan 01, 2003 5:40 am

Receiving the nine gifts from the emperor and having the title of King wouldn't brand Cao Cao a traitor even if the people preceding him in receiving such honours were traitors. The nine gifts were meant to commend a person with highest honour for great contributions or great power and not brand a person a traitor, otherwise why should it be called the Nine Gifts and not Nine Sins or whatsoever.

The title of King is also one of highest honour, a noble rank that's higher than Duke or Marquis. There's no indication of a need for a King to be of the same descent as the emperor's line, although it's common for the emperor's brothers, uncles and other male relatives to hold this title. Given the period of three kingdoms, I don't see why Cao Cao did not deserve the title of King or the Nine Gifts for his contributions to northern China.
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