The great betrayal, on Sun Quan and Jing Zhou

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Re: The great betrayal, on Sun Quan and Jing Zhou

Unread postby Guazabara » Tue Sep 13, 2011 11:57 pm

mrbeate wrote:
Serve the emperor? You mean the Emperor that Liu Bei barely knew at all. If Liu Bei truly wanted to serve the emperor he wouldn't have been so haste to declare being the Emperor of Shu. Nearly as soon as Emperor Xian was deposed of, Liu Bei in the next year or so made him self the emperor.

There is no historical context that indicates Liu Bei wanted to serve the emperor and restore the Han under Xian. Liu Bei was just another every day warlord trying to conquer China under himself.



In China, you dont need to know the emperor to serve him :wink: . You must, period. Liu Bei was not a warlord lol. So voluntering to fight against the yellow scarves is not, serving the emperor? I dont know what is then. Emperor of Shu, even if "its not proven" that he had Han blood, he did it just because. IF he was of Han blood then what he did was completely legal and the right thing to do.
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Re: The great betrayal, on Sun Quan and Jing Zhou

Unread postby mrbeate » Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:02 am

Guazabara wrote:In China, you dont need to know the emperor to serve him :wink: . You must, period. Liu Bei was not a warlord lol. So voluntering to fight against the yellow scarves is not, serving the emperor? I dont know what is then. Emperor of Shu, even if "its not proven" that he had Han blood, he did it just because. IF he was of Han blood then what he did was completely legal and the right thing to do.


Cao Cao, Dong Zhuo, Yuan Shao, Yuan Shu, and every other big names out there served the Imperial Army and many participated in the Yellow Turban Campaign, isn't that serving the Emperor too then? Liu Bei isn't unique here then.

Liu Bei was a warlord like all the names I mentioned. He had a recognizable size of land, and a military/armed force, with the ambition and goal to conquer China. That is a warlord.
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Re: The great betrayal, on Sun Quan and Jing Zhou

Unread postby Guazabara » Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:19 am

He had no land to speak of, in the begining of his known career. He joined the forces against the yellows scarves which granted him being magristrate of Anxi. Do you know what 's a magistrate and the responsabilities of a magistrate?...i think not.


Liu Bei got "warlord" status when he had land under Liu Biao and not even. Have you even read his bio?

I think you should, all of it then come back.
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Re: The great betrayal, on Sun Quan and Jing Zhou

Unread postby dymlos timbre » Wed Sep 14, 2011 12:56 am

@dymlos

I admit I was supposing, because it is likely that what I said would happen. Unles Cao had a million men at his disposal, or they had an incredible agility to enlist and train troops after the loss at Hanzhong. I dont think you read me when i said joint attack. I get it you are a Weist, understandable.

Men die at war and it takes an incredible amount of time to makeup for that loss, speacially when the loss gets to the thousands. Fan was the only thing standing between Xu chang and Guan Yu , had he won. You dont need to conquer the whole Wei territory to do this, attack Wei's central province and the rest is yours. This doesnt need to be recorded in history because it is military strategy it has been done before.

And there is no proof that there would be a major retaliation either. If we get to proofs , the whole point of my reply at first loses its fun. Wei wouldnt not have the man power to hold two fronts even with great generals(great generals need men), we are not talking of the yellows scarves barking at your door, Im talking about Shu and Wu.


Your exaggerating liu bei's victory at hanzhong, Cao Cao pulled out before any major loses Could be had, he already lost xiahou yuan and campaigning in hanzhong would be foolish with the harsh terrain, So he relocated the people, meaning liu bei gained Land but no Population witch you need to Fight war's he also lost at least 3 Generals Himself one being Lie tong so don't tell me he didn't take any loses ( he needed to call for reinforcements after a couple of defeats from zhang he at Guangshi)

men die at war... so you mean the thousands Guan yu Got killed in his reckless campaign that ended in him getting pretty much routed? you have to remember It was pretty much Dumb luck Guan yu even got that far, how about the thousands Wu gets killed every time they attack he fei witch never has anywhere near the amount of troops Wu has attacking it. The Army's of the three kingdoms were anything but equal, Wei was able to old an army twice the amount Wu could and they had the population.

You act like Wei would do nothing about a joint attack on fan, A joint attack on one area is Foolish that's just asking for wei to give you BOTH a humiliating Defeat, you want to Spread Wei's army not Bundle it up in one spot a Bigger army at that too, drag that siege out just long enough and its just asking for Wei to attack you elsewhere. In fact Wu and Shu did make joint attacks at Wei, all of witch failed, this is the whole point of Sun quans invasion of jing, HE WASN'T GETTING ANYWHERE AGAINST WEI.

The Fact is Wu and Shu Didn't have the resources to make Gains and hold them, Why do you think whenever they did make gains they withdrew? Fear of a Wei counter attack they didn't have the resources to hold such gains and Wei is not dumb enough to let them waltz on in to there capital, that's Why Guan yu failed.

BTW i don't have any Specific "kingdom" i like, i just take what i have read from the SGZ's and i have not seen any evidence that what you said would even happen/work.
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Re: The great betrayal, on Sun Quan and Jing Zhou

Unread postby mrbeate » Wed Sep 14, 2011 1:45 am

Guazabara wrote:He had no land to speak of, in the begining of his known career. He joined the forces against the yellows scarves which granted him being magristrate of Anxi. Do you know what 's a magistrate and the responsabilities of a magistrate?...i think not.


Liu Bei got "warlord" status when he had land under Liu Biao and not even. Have you even read his bio?

I think you should, all of it then come back.


:|

Alright, uhhhhh. Liu Bei was a magistrate, he still had an armed force, he didn't listen to anybody except Gongsun Zan, whom he spontaneously left. Liu Bei also had land in Xu province, he became Governor of Xu Province after Tao Qian's death. He had a standing armed force, and fought/defend for land. That sounds like a warlord to me. Yuan Shu, Shao, Cao Cao, Ma Teng, had official rankings from the court or self proclaimed, had an armed force, and worked on their own ambitions and goals, them and Liu Bei were no different. Just because Liu Bei lagged during the early years doesn't mean he shouldn't be called a warlord. He attained land in Jing and how is that " Not even" what? Was he a representative of the court? Nope. No official document. And also later conquered Yizhou from Liu Zhang btw was a back stab.
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Re: The great betrayal, on Sun Quan and Jing Zhou

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Sep 14, 2011 6:39 am

Guazabara wrote:
I think Sun Quan should have trusted a man that wanted to serve the emperor, just like his father before him, who served the emperor in ending the chaos. Lui Bei came to realize that Sun Quan(pre Chi Bi) would be an Ideal third player(as advised by Zhugeliang) to battle Cao and together defeat him and bring the rule of the Han to a resume path. However, Sun Quan was not Sun Jian in any way, thus all this happened.


Quan probably didn't believe Liu Bei wanted to serve the Emperor (most warlords seem to have been a tad cynical on that one) and even if he did, Quan didn't care and has no reason to do so. Yes, Sun Jian had served the Han, Sun Jian had also murdered Han governors and served as Yuan Shu's commander so his exact motives were questionable. Quan saw a man of great ambition and ability, one with a record of betrayals and had (rightly or wrongly) felt rather betrayed himself while he also believed taking Jing (rightly or wrongly) was the best course for Wu. I don't think Quan should have trusted Liu Bei (vice versa), it is just whether moving against Jing was the right option for Wu or not that I think is the issue.
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Re: The great betrayal, on Sun Quan and Jing Zhou

Unread postby Striga » Mon Oct 31, 2011 12:19 am

The only argument I have in Liu Bei’s favour is that he named his kingdom Shu-Han, rather than just Shu.
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Re: The great betrayal, on Sun Quan and Jing Zhou

Unread postby Gray Riders » Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:12 pm

Striga wrote:The only argument I have in Liu Bei’s favour is that he named his kingdom Shu-Han, rather than just Shu.

If I'm not mistaken, Liu Bei just called it "Han" and the Shu part was added by later historians to distinguish from the other Han.
Edit: Didn't realize Dong Zhou mentioned this in another topic.
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Re: The great betrayal, on Sun Quan and Jing Zhou

Unread postby Striga » Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:51 pm

I probably shouldn't have linked the two. I had somehow thought I failed to post it when I went into this one. :oops:
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Re: The great betrayal, on Sun Quan and Jing Zhou

Unread postby jonathan_hili » Mon Mar 25, 2019 5:25 am

Thank you all for the enlightening discussion and debate around this topic. I find the Sun-Liu alliance and the accusations of betrayal to be one of the most fascinating of the Three Kingdoms period. Ultimately, I believe it is difficult to form solid conclusions about who betrayed whom (at least up to 215), but, having surveyed as much of the evidence as I could get my hands on in translation (mostly biographies from SGZ), I feel quite confident about these assertions:

1) After Chibi, around 210, Liu Bei was recognised as Governor of Jingzhou. Certainly, this is a symbolic title – as Liu Bei memorialised Sun Quan as governor of Xuzhou as well – however, it does indicate a form of authority over the region (since south Jing is already occupied).

2) Sun Quan, following on Zhou Yu’s plan, proposes to Liu Bei a joint-attack on Yizhou. Liu Bei’s responses vary. He either suggests it is a good plan but is not ready to proceed (as Jingzhou has just been newly conquered), so it doesn’t occur; he disagrees with it because of fear of a Cao Cao counter-attack and it will harm his reputation, so he blocks Sun Yu and the plan is aborted; or he responds by defending Liu Zhang as a Han clansmen and threatens to retire of the attack happens, so it is aborted, but when he takes Yizhou himself, Sun Quan says Bei is cunning and tricked him. This entire episode seems confused. It can be accepted that Sun Quan proposes a plan to attack Yizhou to Liu Bei, which Liu Bei refuses. The reasons for why he does so are so varied as to be difficult to ascertain.

3) The language of “lending” is used in the Wu biographies. Lu Su advises Sun Quan to “lend” Jing Province to Liu Bei to strengthen the alliance; Han Jin Chunqiu repeats this but emphasises that Liu Bei will help pacify the area and act as a defensive buffer against Cao Cao. Even when Cao Cao learned that Sun Quan “lent” Jingzhou to Liu Bei he was visibly upset. The language of “lending” occurs only in the Wu biographies, and the reasons why to “lend” the land to Liu Bei are mixed. It is unclear whether what is being “lent” to Liu Bei was Jiangling or the entire province.

4) Sun Quan sent a request to Liu Bei after he had conquered Yizhou. The language used in the biographies varies. Jingzhou region is requested/asked for; Liu Bei will give/offer Jingzhou region when he conquers Liangzhou (he needs this first); Quan says Bei is “borrowing without returning” and “gaining time”. It is unclear precisely what territory is being requested: it seems likely the entire province is being asked for, not just Jiangling/Nanjun.

5) In Lu Su’s Yiyang meeting with Guan Yu, Lu Su says the lands were “lent” to Liu Bei and requests the lands be returned. Not just Jiangling/Nanjun.

If these "facts" might be tentatively accepted - and please dispute away! :D - what conclusions can be drawn?

1) Liu Bei was recognised as an authority (Governor) of Jingzhou by Sun Quan around 210.

2) The territory was “lent” to Liu Bei by Sun Quan. However, the conditions of this “lending” are not stated. If a condition of the “lending” is that Liu Bei first establish his own base in Yizhou, this would be contradicted by his rejection of the joint-plan to invade Shu (which occurs after he takes power in Jiangling). Liu Bei’s responses to the Wu ambassador also do not suggest any conditions: he just says he wants to conquer Liangzhou first before ceding Jingzhou; even Sun Quan’s reply (where he does talk about Liu Bei biding time and borrowing without returning) does not suggest a condition.

3) Furthermore, it is unclear which territory was “lent”. The sources that discuss “lending” seem to suggest the entire province (not just Jiangling) but this is very improbable, since the southern commanderies were conquered by Liu Bei.

In the context of the overall discussion of "who betrayed whom" (at least prior to 215), I think it is reasonable to say that Liu Bei had in some sense borrowed (at least) Jiangling from Sun Quan. When was this territory supposed to be returned? We just don't know. Liu Bei certainly doesn't believe he was compelled to return it after having conquered Yizhou, and Sun Quan doesn't seem to suggest this either. The legitimacy of the latter also claiming the entire southern region: the commanderies of Changsha, Ling Ling, Wu Ling and Guiyang, is also unclear.
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