The great betrayal, on Sun Quan and Jing Zhou

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The great betrayal, on Sun Quan and Jing Zhou

Unread postby Jimayo » Tue Dec 31, 2002 5:18 pm

To summarize the argument, I said Sun Quan betrayed his ally in taking Jing, Han Xin disagreed, stating that it was lent and meant to be returned. I said that when Lu Meng invaded the first time, conquering Chang Sha, Gui Yang and Ling Ling, they signed an agreement giving everything north of the Xia(I think it's the Xia) river to Liu Bei(that being Wu Ling and Jiang Ling) and everything south of it to Sun Quan, so when Sun invaded, he betrayed that agreement. Han Xin said Guan Yu broke it first by taking Xiang Guan, and I said:

Jimayo Oyamitch wrote:I never said it wasn't. I'm not saying Guan did something right in taking Xiang Guan, cause he didn't. What I am saying is that was simply used as propaganda, and justification, for an invasion that was well prepared, and ready to go. They were massed near the border with the majority of their army and prepared to attack. Whether Xiang Guan happened or not, they were gonna invade.


I would also like to add, that he mobilised his army long before Xiang Guan. You don't put on a condom unless your gonna f***. Mobilising an army is expensive, so their is no doubt he meant to use it. If Xiang Guan never happened, do you honestly believe he would ignore the expense he put into mobilising his army and massing it on the border and do nothing? That's very naive. If he truly didn't want to invade he would of sought a diplomatic solution(such as recompense for the grain taken).
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Unread postby Cheng YU » Tue Dec 31, 2002 11:15 pm

I would say it's more a self-defense...first they lend it. Zhuge promised to return it after they had Yi, but instead they guarded it heavily and kept it with force. Sun Quan may want to give it up, but he couldn't...cuz if look at map, control of Jin means control of Yangzi river, and they can flow down the river and strike right into the heart of Wu. It's just a matter of time before they do so...maybe Shu don't mean it, but it sure is a threat...like someone pointing a gun at you but didn't mean to shoot you...you'll probably still feel threatened. So you'd probably take some actions. And during 3kingdom era, there's no promises between countries. So Quan was really worried about that land. So that maybe the reason why he used all means to take it back. They are all for themselves ain't they...so neither was more righteous.
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Unread postby Jimayo » Wed Jan 01, 2003 2:11 am

Cheng YU wrote:I would say it's more a self-defense...first they lend it. Zhuge promised to return it after they had Yi, but instead they guarded it heavily and kept it with force. Sun Quan may want to give it up, but he couldn't...cuz if look at map, control of Jin means control of Yangzi river, and they can flow down the river and strike right into the heart of Wu. It's just a matter of time before they do so...maybe Shu don't mean it, but it sure is a threat...like someone pointing a gun at you but didn't mean to shoot you...you'll probably still feel threatened. So you'd probably take some actions. And during 3kingdom era, there's no promises between countries. So Quan was really worried about that land. So that maybe the reason why he used all means to take it back. They are all for themselves ain't they...so neither was more righteous.


You're missing a spot here dude, where they invaded, took Chang Sha, Gui Yang and Ling Ling, faced the main army and were defeated, then signed an agreement giving everything north of the Xia river to Liu Bei.
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Unread postby Cheng YU » Wed Jan 01, 2003 2:38 am

Huh...they're always greedy. But u can't blame them...they are 2 countries ain't they...there's no betrayal or what so ever. Liu betrayed by not returning Jin, Quan did self defense by take it back and got greedy, and were fought back. Then Liu Bei attacked 'em and failed. So I'd say they're evened out. After all, Jin was like the reward of Chi Bi, and which side did more? Wu or Shu? Therefore Jin should be Wu's. And Shu knows it that's why they said to 'borrow' it instead of 'take' it.

Both sides are betrayal. None is righteous.
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Unread postby Jimayo » Wed Jan 01, 2003 2:48 am

Cheng YU wrote:Huh...they're always greedy. But u can't blame them...they are 2 countries ain't they...there's no betrayal or what so ever. Liu betrayed by not returning Jin, Quan did self defense by take it back and got greedy, and were fought back. Then Liu Bei attacked 'em and failed. So I'd say they're evened out. After all, Jin was like the reward of Chi Bi, and which side did more? Wu or Shu? Therefore Jin should be Wu's. And Shu knows it that's why they said to 'borrow' it instead of 'take' it.

Both sides are betrayal. None is righteous.


Dude, did you even read what I posted? Long before the great betrayal(which is what I'm gonna call it), Lu Meng invaded South Jing. They conquered some territory, but couldn't win, and signed an agreement whereby, Jiang Ling, Wu Ling, and Ling Ling became Liu Bei's. Chang Sha and Gui Yang belonged to Sun Quan. This isn't a loan, the loan had happened long before this time, and since Liu Bei wouldn't give it back, Sun Quan tried to take it by force(and failed), so he signed a new treaty with Liu Bei.
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Unread postby Han Xin » Wed Jan 01, 2003 1:47 pm

Jimayo Oyamitch wrote:Dude, did you even read what I posted? Long before the great betrayal(which is what I'm gonna call it), Lu Meng invaded South Jing. They conquered some territory, but couldn't win, and signed an agreement whereby, Jiang Ling, Wu Ling, and Ling Ling became Liu Bei's. Chang Sha and Gui Yang belonged to Sun Quan. This isn't a loan, the loan had happened long before this time, and since Liu Bei wouldn't give it back, Sun Quan tried to take it by force(and failed), so he signed a new treaty with Liu Bei.


Correction Jimayo, Lu Meng already conquered ChangSha, Gui Yang, and LingLing in 215AD. I like to see your source saying that Wu invade Jing in 215AD and failed. Here is a rough timeline on the JingZhou thing, please point out to me where/when was the so-called "Great Betrayal"?

  1. 210AD- Liu Bei when over to Wu and borrow Nan prefecture promising Wu his holding in JingZhou as interest.
  2. 211-214AD- Liu Bei backstabbed his kinsmen in Liu Zhang and took controlled of YiZhou.
  3. Late 214-Early 215AD- Sun Quan send Zhuge Jin to ChengDu to ask Liu Bei to fulfill his obligation in the lending of JingZhou. Liu Bei refuse saying that he wanted LiangZhou before he could gives JingZhou to Wu. Zhuge Jin demanded 3 prefectures (ChangSha, Lingling, and GuiYang) as partial fulfilment of the agreement. Again Liu Bei refused.
  4. 215AD- Sun Quan send Lu Meng with 20,000 troops to take ChangSha, LingLing, and GuiYang by forced. Lu Su and Gan Ning at Lu Kuo stop Guan Yu's re-enforcement from reaching southern Jing.
  5. Summer 215AD- Liu Bei travelled to Gong An with his troops trying take back those prefectures.
  6. Autumn 215AD- Cao Cao invaded HanZhong. Liu Bei and Sun Quan agree on the new settlement.
  7. 217AD- Lu Su dies, Lu Meng replace him commander in JingZhou. Lu Meng argued that Guan Yu could not be trusted, initially Sun Quan felt that XuZhou was the way to go, but Lu Meng convince him that Guan Yu must be removed.
  8. 218AD- Sun Quan established formal ties with Cao Cao. Sun Quan asking Lu Meng to plot the take over of JingZhou.
  9. Spring 219AD- Liu Bei captured HanZhong from Cao Cao.
  10. Summer 219AD- Taking advantage of heavy rain, Guan Yu defeated Yu Jin's 7 armies.
  11. Autumn/Winter 219AD- Guan Yu continue to besiege FanCheng. Sometime during this time Guan Yu's forces started to run out of food, Guan Yu raided Wu's silo at Xiang Guan to steal grains.
  12. Late Winter 219AD- Wu invaded Shu's Jingzhou. Guan Yu was killed.


So Jimayo, which part was the "great betrayal"?
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Unread postby Jimayo » Wed Jan 01, 2003 9:37 pm

That would be when they mobilised their army and prepared to invade an ally, then actually went through with it. And on friday, I'll look up and post the little section rafe had on the first invasion.
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Unread postby Yuan Seth » Thu Jan 02, 2003 1:10 am

I seem to find myself agreeing with Han Xin. As I recall, what he said was what I had known too. Please tell me about this "Great Betrayal" too. I don't remember Wu attacking its "ally"
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Unread postby Han Xin » Thu Jan 02, 2003 4:22 am

Jimayo Oyamitch wrote:That would be when they mobilised their army and prepared to invade an ally, then actually went through with it. And on friday, I'll look up and post the little section rafe had on the first invasion.

When did Wu mobilised their army and prepared to attack an ally? The whole time there was minimal troops in Wu's part of JingZhou, the bulk of Wu's forces were on their northern border in Yang facing Wei.

Did Wu mobilised her force before or after Guan Yu sacked Xiang Guan? If one say that it is "after" then its funny that one could say that Wu and Shu was still allied after a Shu general sacked one of Wu's outpost.

Hmm... The "Great Betrayal"?

Guan Yu attacked Wu when they are still ally was that "betrayal"? Normally YES, however for Shuist then it NO cos Shu represent the Han and every land in China belonged to the Han. :lol:

Wu retaliate after Shu attacked them, was that a "betrayal"? Normally NO, however for Shuist then it is YES cos Shu represent the Han and for Wu to attack Han was disloyal hence "betrayal"... :lol:
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Unread postby Jimayo » Thu Jan 02, 2003 4:27 am

Han Xin wrote:When did Wu mobilised their army and prepared to attack an ally? The whole time there was minimal troops in Wu's part of JingZhou, the bulk of Wu's forces were on their northern border in Yang facing Wei.

Did Wu mobilised her force before or after Guan Yu sacked Xiang Guan? If one say that it is "after" then its funny that one could say that Wu and Shu was still allied after a Shu general sacked one of Wu's outpost.

Hmm... The "Great Betrayal"?

Guan Yu attacked Wu when they are still ally was that "betrayal"? Normally YES, however for Shuist then it NO cos Shu represent the Han and every land in China belonged to the Han. :lol:

Wu retaliate after Shu attacked them, was that a "betrayal"? Normally NO, however for Shuist then it is YES cos Shu represent the Han and for Wu to attack Han was disloyal hence "betrayal"... :lol:


Before the sacking. There was only a light force on the northern border that was there for show(according to GOS), and Xiang Guan was a relatively minor little place(in fact there is no record of where it was, so it couldn't of been that important). In fact it was a minor incident that could of been smoothed over had Sun Quan truly wanted to keep the alliance going.
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