Talents of the three kingdoms

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Re: Talents of the three kingdoms

Unread postby Shen Ai » Mon Feb 23, 2015 6:13 pm

Think I'll try this again:

Shu:
Favourite general: Wei Yan
Least favourite general: Ma Chao
Greatest dueller: ?
Most overrated general: Zhao Yun
Most underrated general: Wei Yan
Favourite strategist: Zhuge Liang
Least favourite strategist: Ma Su
Most overrated strategist: Zhuge Liang
Most underrated strategist: Fa Zheng
Greatest strategist: ...
Favourite diplomatic / envoy: Sun Qian
Overall greatest general of the kingdom Shu: Wang Ping

Wu:
Favourite general: Zhou Yu
Least favourite general: Zhu Huan
Greatest dueller: Sun Ce
Most overrated general: Lu Xun
Most underrated general: Zhu Zhi
Favourite strategist: Zhou Yu
Least favourite strategist: Lu Xun
Greatest strategist: Lu Meng
Most overrated strategist: Lu Xun
Most underrated strategist: Lü Fan
Favourite Official: Zhang Zhao
Overall greatest general of the kingdom Wu: Sun Jian or Lu Meng

Wei:
Favourite general: Zhang Liao and Cao Cao
Least favourite general: Sima Yi
Greatest dueller: Dian Wei
Most overrated general: Sima Yi
Most underrated general: Cao Zhen or Deng Ai
Favourite strategist: Jia Xu
Least favourite strategist: Sima Yi
Greatest strategist: Jia Xu
Most overrated strategist: Sima Yi
Most underrated strategist: Man Chong
Favourite Official: Chen Qun
Overall greatest general of Wei: Cao Cao, followed by Cao Ren

Others:
Favourite general: Yuan Shao
Least favourite general: Gongsun Zan
Greatest dueller: Lu Bu
Most overrated general: Yuan Shang?
Most underrated general: Qu Yi and Xu Rong
Favourite strategist:
Least favourite strategist: Guo Tu
Greatest strategist: Tian Feng
Most overrated strategist: Shen Pei
Most underrated strategist: Tian Feng
Favourite Official:
Overall greatest general: Yuan Shao or Dong Zhuo

Overall:
Favourite general: Cao Cao
Least favourite general: Zhao Yun or Lu Xun
Most overrated general: Lu Xun
Most underrated general: Cao Zhen or Deng Ai
Favourite strategist: Jia Xu
Least favourite strategist: Sima Yi
Greatest strategist: Jia Xu
Most overrated strategist: Lu Xun
Most underrated strategist:
Favourite Official: Zhuge Liang or Zhang Zhao
Overall greatest general of the three kingdoms era: Cao Cao
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Wei has no more famous commanders, Shen Ai takes lead of the vanguard!

Even a commoner on the street knows what Shen Ai is thinking!
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Re: Talents of the three kingdoms

Unread postby greencactaur » Tue Jun 07, 2016 8:56 pm

Shu:
Favourite general: Zhao Yun
Least favourite general: Mi Fang
Greatest dueller: Zhang Fei
Most overrated general: Ma Chao
Most underrated general: Huang Zhong
Favourite strategist: Zhuge Liang
Least favourite strategist: Ma Su/ Huang Hao (Does this count?)
Greatest strategist: Zhuge Liang
Most overrated strategist: Li Yan/ Jiang Wei
Most underrated strategist: Ma Liang (He was KIA during Yi Ling, but I think he could've had a huge career, if he wasn't killed)
Overall greatest general of the kingdom Shu: Huang Zhong

Wu:
Favourite general: Gan Ning
Least favourite general: Ling Tong
Greatest dueller: Sun Ce Maybe Zhou Tai?
Most overrated general: Can't really say I have one
Most underrated general: Cheng Pu
Favourite strategist: Lu Xun
Least favourite strategist: Zhang Zhao
Greatest strategist: Lu Xun
Most overrated strategist: Zhang Zhao
Most underrated strategist: Lu Su
Overall greatest general of the kingdom Wu: Zhou Yu

Wei:
Favourite general: Zhang He/Zhang Liao
Least favourite general: Yu Jin
Greatest dueller: Xu Zhu
Most overrated general: Yu Jin
Most underrated general: Cao Chun
Favourite strategist: Gou Jia
Least favourite strategist: Yang Xiu
Greatest strategist: Jia Xu
Most overrated strategist: Sima Yi
Most underrated strategist: Jia Xu
Overall greatest general of Wei: Zhang Liao/Zhang He

None three kingdoms:
Favourite general:
Least favourite general: Lu Bu
Greatest dueller: Lu Bu
Most overrated general: Lu Bu


Overall:
Favourite general: Zhao Yun
Least favourite general: Ling Tong
Greatest dueller: Zhang Fei
Most overrated general: Lu Bu
Most underrated general: Cheng Pu
Favourite strategist: Gou Jia
Least favourite strategist: Xiang Yu
Greatest strategist: Zhuge Liang
Most overrated strategist: Zhang Zhao
Most underrated strategist:
Overall greatest general of the three kingdoms era: Hard to pick just one, but I guess Zhang He or Gou Hai, after learning about Gou Hai....
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Re: Talents of the three kingdoms

Unread postby danuracula » Tue Jan 03, 2017 12:24 pm

Overall:
Favourite general: Lu Meng & Zhang Liao
Least favourite general: -
Greatest dueller: Zhang Liao
Most overrated general: Lu Bu
Most underrated general: Ling Tong
Favourite strategist: Zhou Yu & Lu Xun
Least favourite strategist: -
Greatest strategist: Zhou Yu
Most overrated strategist: Zhuge Liang
Most underrated strategist: Fa Zheng
Overall greatest man of the three kingdoms era: Zhou Yu

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Re: Talents of the three kingdoms

Unread postby Emperor Xuan of Jin » Tue Jan 03, 2017 10:06 pm

danuracula wrote:Overall:
Favourite general: Lu Meng & Zhang Liao
Least favourite general: -
Greatest dueller: Zhang Liao
Most overrated general: Lu Bu
Most underrated general: Ling Tong
Favourite strategist: Zhou Yu & Lu Xun
Least favourite strategist: -
Greatest strategist: Zhou Yu
Most overrated strategist: Zhuge Liang
Most underrated strategist: Fa Zheng
Overall greatest man of the three kingdoms era: Zhou Yu

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I personally like Zhuge Liang because of his great inventions and other stuff, but I guess he is kinda overrated. I also think that Guo Jia and Jia Xu were also quite intelligent. I want to point out that Zhou Yu would have been a better strategist (don't get me wrong, he was pretty smart) if he hadn't died so young.


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Re: Talents of the three kingdoms

Unread postby danuracula » Tue Jan 03, 2017 10:22 pm

Emperor Xuan of Jin wrote:
danuracula wrote:Overall:
Favourite general: Lu Meng & Zhang Liao
Least favourite general: -
Greatest dueller: Zhang Liao
Most overrated general: Lu Bu
Most underrated general: Ling Tong
Favourite strategist: Zhou Yu & Lu Xun
Least favourite strategist: -
Greatest strategist: Zhou Yu
Most overrated strategist: Zhuge Liang
Most underrated strategist: Fa Zheng
Overall greatest man of the three kingdoms era: Zhou Yu

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I personally like Zhuge Liang because of his great inventions and other stuff, but I guess he is kinda overrated. I also think that Guo Jia and Jia Xu were also quite intelligent. I want to point out that Zhou Yu would have been a better strategist (don't get me wrong, he was pretty smart) if he hadn't died so young.


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Agree!

Zhuge Liang is a great inventor but too much powerful in novel. I think the author of SGYY is Kongming's fanboy, that's why he made Zhou Yu as a bad guy. Because the real Gongjin is more superior than Kongming.

I like Jia Xu and Guo Jia too. But still, i prefer Lu Xun.

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Re: Talents of the three kingdoms

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:31 pm

danuracula wrote:I think the author of SGYY is Kongming's fanboy, that's why he made Zhou Yu as a bad guy. Because the real Gongjin is more superior than Kongming.


Going to disagree here.

LGZ probably made Zhuge Liang the God-mode ridiculous character for a number of reasons. Culture already there played a part in his picks, he needed Liu Bei to be mr virtue so had to dumb down Liu Bei from a very skilled warlord to someone who needs support, Zhuge Liang appears just before Liu Bei turned his fortunes around (which was down to Liu Bei rather then Zhuge Liang but makes convenient narrative timing). Shu lacked a strategist historically for LGZ to use in epic strategy duels, Zhuge Liang as Shu's main commander after CiC means LGZ has to do battles with him anyway and he has to build this up. Make those battles a big Zhuge Liang vs Sima Yi strategist fight, make Zhuge Liang Liu Bei's super strategist who turned it around, makes for a great read and makes sense. He also makes ZGL into a jerk which he wasn't historically.

It does mean the historical Zhuge Liang gets a backlash. He was a skilled commander and a genius in many other spheres but not someone with daring tactics but when people find out he wasn't a walking god mode, it tends to get hit too hard the other way.

Zhou Yu if anything benefits from the novel when people talk about history, people talk about how Zhuge Liang got overhyped while ignoring that Zhou Yu got considerable benefit too. Where Zhou Yu gets shafted is personality, he was a generous and good man according to the histories and novel makes him petty and jealous. In terms of abilities, the historical Zhou Yu was a very good commander under Sun Quan and a key support whose death was a huge blow to Wu. That's it. He was never a strategist but LGZ makes him one, his role in Wu's founding (historically used as "hold this for me while I go fight" by Sun Ce) is really really built up by LGZ who builds up the novel Zhou Yu to something more then he was historically becuase he wants ZGL to have an early rival.

Was Zhou Yu a better commander then Zhuge Liang historically? Yes. So were a lot of other people, Zhuge Liang's strength lay in many other areas. Better as a strategist? No but Zhou Yu never was one historically and that's ok

Edit: see my next post for corrections
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Re: Talents of the three kingdoms

Unread postby danuracula » Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:42 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:Was Zhou Yu a better commander then Zhuge Liang historically? Yes. So were a lot of other people, Zhuge Liang's strength lay in many other areas. Better as a strategist? No but Zhou Yu never was one historically and that's ok


What is the definition of "a strategist" for you?

For me, Zhou Yu decides to go war against Cao Cao after seeing the situation is a strategy. So Zhou Yu is a strategist.

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Re: Talents of the three kingdoms

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:10 pm

Fair question

Someone who creates plans on how to defeat the foe/expand the kingdom. So Zhou Yu's two kingdom plan makes him a strategist, Lu Meng's Jing plan, Zhuge Liang's three kingdom plan so I'll withdraw 1 part and one other line and change it to

He was never a tactician but LGZ makes him one


Was Zhou Yu a better commander then Zhuge Liang historically? Yes. So were a lot of other people, Zhuge Liang's strength lay in many other areas. Better as a strategist? Each to their own as to who had the better long term plan. Better as a tactician? No, Zhou Yu used others for that which is not a bad thing.
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Re: Talents of the three kingdoms

Unread postby danuracula » Wed Jan 04, 2017 3:09 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:Fair question

Someone who creates plans on how to defeat the foe/expand the kingdom. So Zhou Yu's two kingdom plan makes him a strategist, Lu Meng's Jing plan, Zhuge Liang's three kingdom plan so I'll withdraw 1 part and one other line and change it to

He was never a tactician but LGZ makes him one


Was Zhou Yu a better commander then Zhuge Liang historically? Yes. So were a lot of other people, Zhuge Liang's strength lay in many other areas. Better as a strategist? Each to their own as to who had the better long term plan. Better as a tactician? No, Zhou Yu used others for that which is not a bad thing.

This is the difference. strategy(long term objectives and plan of action) and tactics(short term methods of overcoming obstacles in pursuit of the longer-term strategy).

So, we still don't know how good is Zhou Yu as a tactician because he died soon after proposing his 2 kingdoms strategy. He has no chance to show his tactics because he died early.

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Re: Talents of the three kingdoms

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Jan 04, 2017 3:42 pm

The problem for that that Zhou Yu had plenty of battles in which to show a flair for tactics, he never did. He was very good at listening to advice and using it but not creating his own. That ability to listen helped make him a very good commander so I'm not dismissing him but we can't call him a tactician.

Whereas we can certainly call the novel Zhou Yu a tactician which is my wider point.
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