Little Help, Civil Ranks

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Little Help, Civil Ranks

Unread postby Jimayo » Mon Dec 16, 2002 6:51 pm

I'm trying to get these civil ranks in the proper order.

Aide-de-Camp
Chief Clerk
Lieutenant-Chancellor
Inspector
Attendant official
Gentleman of the General Staff
Grand Minister of Agriculture
Marquis of a Chief Commune
Marquis of a Chief District
Investigator
Magistrate
Officer of the Department of Merit
Prefect in charge of Official Chariots
Superintendent of the Imperial Household
Imperial Household Grandee
Marquis of the Imperial Domain
Honoured Lady
Marquis
Prefect of the Yellow Gates
Gentleman in Attendance of the Yellow Gates
Household assistant
Grandee Remonstrant and Consultant
Resident Chief Clerk
Commandery Assistant
Gentleman of the Palace
Prefect of the Gentlemen of the Palace
Prefect
to control the affairs of the Imperial Secretariat
Beauty
Governor
minister
Supervisor of the Palace Workshop
Imperial secretariat
Privy Treasurer
Commissioner
Attendant Imperial Clerk
Palace Attendant
Minister of works
Minister over the Masses
Director of Uprightness
Grand Master of Ceremonies
Grand Tutor
Grand Judge
Grand Coachman
Grand Master
Grand Clerk
Grand Administrator
Prefect Grand Physician
marquis of a commune
Commandant of Justice
Chief of a Commune
Chief Commandant of the Agricultural Colonies
General of the Guards
Head Clerk for Literary Scholarship
chancellor
Marquis of a district
chancellor of State
Marquis of a Prefecture
“filially pious and incorrupt”
Gentleman-consultant
Intendant
Prefect of the Lateral Courts
Privy Treasurer of the Yongle Palace
Head Clerk
Office of the Imperial Wardrobe
Imperial Clerk Grandee
Palace Assistant Imperial Clerk
Chief
Libationer
Imperial Clerk Preparer of Documents
Palace Regular Attendant
palace commandant
Master of Records
Superintendent of the Imperial House
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Unread postby Mega Zarak » Tue Dec 17, 2002 4:00 am

IMO, this is not exactly little help!! :lol:
Anyway, the 100 officers ranking both in Hou Han Shu (Book of Later Han) and in Han Shu (Book of Han) is where such information can be found. Sadly, it's in Chinese and in HHS, if I'm not wrong, there're 5 chapters on it! Not sure where you get all these names from (Lady Wu? or Crespigny?) but I'd need the Chinese names to be sure of the exact appointment and its place in the hierarchy. Also, maybe you can refer to Crespigny's article on Later Han military organization for a brief picture of such stuffs. :D
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Unread postby Jimayo » Tue Dec 17, 2002 5:18 am

Great Deer wrote:IMO, this is not exactly little help!! :lol:
Anyway, the 100 officers ranking both in Hou Han Shu (Book of Later Han) and in Han Shu (Book of Han) is where such information can be found. Sadly, it's in Chinese and in HHS, if I'm not wrong, there're 5 chapters on it! Not sure where you get all these names from (Lady Wu? or Crespigny?) but I'd need the Chinese names to be sure of the exact appointment and its place in the hierarchy. Also, maybe you can refer to Crespigny's article on Later Han military organization for a brief picture of such stuffs. :D


I got it from florence.

guo State, Kingdom
jun commandery
xian prefecture
zhou province

Civil Officials:

Chinese English equivalent Notes
biejia congshi Aide-de-Camp
changshi Chief Clerk
chengxiang Lieutenant-Chancellor
cishi Inspector
congshi Attendant official
congshi zhonglong Gentleman of the General Staff
dasinong Grand Minister of Agriculture
duting hou Marquis of a Chief Commune
duxiang hou Marquis of a Chief District
duyou Investigator
fujun Magistrate term of address for a Grand Administrator
gongcao congshi Officer of the Department of Merit
gongche ling Prefect in charge of Official Chariots
… guo gong Duke of the State…
guangluxun Superintendent of the Imperial Household
guanlu dafu Imperial Household Grandee
Guannei hou Marquis of the Imperial Domain
hou Marquis
huangmen ling Prefect of the Yellow Gates
huangmen shilang Gentleman in Attendance of the Yellow Gates
jiacheng Household assistant
jianyi dafu Grandee Remonstrant and Consultant
jufu changshi Resident Chief Clerk
jun cheng Commandery Assistant
langzhong Gentleman of the Palace
langzhongling Prefect of the Gentlemen of the Palace
ling Prefect
mu Governor
qing minister
shangfangjian Supervisor of the Palace Workshop
shangshu Imperial secretariat
shaofu Privy Treasurer
shijun Commissioner
shiyushi Attendant Imperial Clerk
shizhong Palace Attendant
sikong Minister of works
situ Minister over the Masses
sizhi Director of Uprightness
taichang Grand Master of Ceremonies
taifu Grand Tutor
taili Grand Judge
taipu Grand Coachman
taishi Grand Master
taishi Grand Clerk
taishou Grand Administrator civil head of a commandery
taiyi ling Prefect Grand Physician
taizi Heir-apparent
ting hou marquis of a commune
tingwei Commandant of Justice
tingzhang Chief of a Commune
tuntian duwei Chief Commandant of the Agricultural Colonies
Wei Jiangjun General of the Guards fourth ranking general
wenxue yuan Head Clerk for Literary Scholarship
xiang chancellor civil head of a kingdom
xiang hou Marquis of a district
xiangguo chancellor of State
xianhou Marquis of a Prefecture
xiaolian “filially pious and incorrupt”
yilang Gentleman-consultant imperial courtier
yin Intendant
Yiting ling Prefect of the Lateral Courts
Yongle Shaofu Privy Treasurer of the Yongle Palace
yuan Head Clerk
yufu Office of the Imperial Wardrobe
yushi dafu Imperial Clerk Grandee
yushi zhongcheng Palace Assistant Imperial Clerk
zhang Chief
zhijiu Libationer
zhishu yushi Imperial Clerk Preparer of Documents
zhongchangshi Palace Regular Attendant
zhongwei palace commandant
zhubu Master of Records
zongzheng Superintendent of the Imperial House
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Unread postby Carp's Tail » Tue Dec 17, 2002 11:30 pm

My website has some of those titles listed in order, according to how Koei rated the titles. I translated them from the Chinese into English, with the latter text beside the former text.

http://www.sixies.net/~carpstail/RTK7PG ... lranks.jpg

Highest to lowest:
huang di (emperor)
wang (prince/king)
gong (duke)
cheng xiang (prime minister--but you have referred to it as lieutenant-chancellor)
da si ma (commander-in-chief)
tai wei (grand marshal)
si tu (minister of the interior--but you have referred to it as minister over the masses)
si kong (minister of public works--you have referred to it as minister of works)
guang lu xun (superintendant of the imperial household)
jiu jin wu (bearer of the golden mace)
wei wei (commandant of the palace guards)
wu guang zhong lang jiang (commander of the five posts)

I might also refer to you Dr. Rafe de Crespigny's website, from which I sourced many of the translations. De Crespigny is a famous scholar of the ancient Chinese political and military organization, and has published several works on the subject, particularly on the Han dynasty. Some of the ranks are on the military side, but they might shed some light for you too.
site: http://www.anu.edu.au/asianstudies/mil_org.html

I have previously tried to contact Dr. Crespigny by email (there is an email link in the above site) but he hasn't responded. You might have better luck.

I also have a Chinese History website that may help too.
site: http://www.chinaknowledge.de/History/Han/westhan.htm

I can also give some impressions about the organization of some of the titles you have mentioned:

"taishou" usually refers to the city prefect like the ones you appoint to command your cities in the RTK games. It literally means "great defender" because, as he is supposed to be, the prefect is the commander of the city defences.

"shizhong" is the "civil officer" back in RTK4, but that doesn't help much in terms of ranking him above or below someone. A shizhong is a medium-level rank, but he usually answers to the taishou (prefect).
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Unread postby Jimayo » Wed Dec 18, 2002 2:26 am

Liutenant Chancellor is not Prime Minister. Liutenant Chancellor is the rank ZL held before he became PM.
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Unread postby Stefanos » Wed Dec 18, 2002 2:28 am

Jimayo Oyamitch wrote:Liutenant Chancellor is not Prime Minister. Liutenant Chancellor is the rank ZL held before he became PM.


Err.. correct me if Im wrong but wasnt it Director General?
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Unread postby Jiang Zhi » Wed Dec 18, 2002 2:59 am

Director General - Jun Shi if I'm not mistaken or 軍師 in Chinese
Erm......is Lord a rank in there? Lord as in "hou" (is that the right word?)
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Unread postby Carp's Tail » Wed Dec 18, 2002 3:44 am

junshi is "directing instructor", exactly.

When I said that "chengxiang" means prime minister, I'm going by the actual translation of the term. Since "chengxiang" is the Chinese that Jimayo used in his list of ranks, it stood to reason that he was referring to the prime minister or "chengxiang".
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Unread postby Jimayo » Wed Dec 18, 2002 4:32 am

Carp's Tail wrote:junshi is "directing instructor", exactly.

When I said that "chengxiang" means prime minister, I'm going by the actual translation of the term. Since "chengxiang" is the Chinese that Jimayo used in his list of ranks, it stood to reason that he was referring to the prime minister or "chengxiang".


I don't know chinese. I just know that a liutenant chancellor is lower in rank than the pm is. Director General is the first rank ZL held, but before he became pm he was liutenant chancellor and placed in charge of civil affairs for shu(li yan was placed in charge of military).
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Unread postby Carp's Tail » Wed Dec 18, 2002 3:16 pm

Yeah, I see that part in the SGZ bio.

Hm, but if he was lieutenant-chancellor by rank, then he could not have been "chengxiang" because the latter title literally means prime minister, and Zhuge Liang had not reached the prime ministerial rank until Liu Bei declared himself hanzhong wang, the Prince of Hanzhong.

It would be helpful if the original Chinese text (not the romanized hanzi) were available to see. That would make things much easier to determine, I think.
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