Han Xin's Great Summer Offensive Pt. 1: Liu Bei and XuZhou

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Han Xin's Great Summer Offensive Pt. 1: Liu Bei and XuZhou

Unread postby Han Xin » Tue Dec 03, 2002 10:04 am

When one read SGYY, it seem that a poor frail old Grand Administrator of XuZhou by the name of Tao Qian begged Liu Bei quite a few times before Liu Bei reluctantly agree to take over as Grand Administrator of XuZhou. Later, when Zhang Fei lost XuZhou to Lu Bu, Liu Bei said that he never wanted it in the first place.

Now how truthful was the account in SGYY?

The brief description (from SGZ) of the saga of how Liu Bei taken over XuZhou after Tao Qian die as followed:

Cao Cao attacked XuZhou, Tao Qian request help from Gongsun Zan. Gongsun Zan dispatch Tian Kai and Liu Bei, Liu Bei arrived at XuZhou with about 1000+ troops. Liu Bei left Gongsun Zan to join Tao Qian after he was given a higher rank. Tao Qian petitioned for Liu Bei to be Administrator of YuZhou and station at XiaoPei. After Tao Qian die, and Liu Bei was made Administrator of XuZhou on the advice of Mi Zhu and Chen Deng.

From the SGZ account above, there four players in this scenario, they were Liu Bei, Mi Zhu, Chen Deng and Tao Qian.

Firstly lets examined Liu Bei bio. In SGZ-Liu Bei, it said that before Tao Qian die he told Mi Zhu that “Without Liu Bei, no peace would come to this province”, and Mi Zhu and the people of XuZhou welcomed Liu Bei. So anyone of Liu Bei’s fan could say whatever they like, but even in Liu Bei’s bio Tao Qian never said that he could take over XuZhou.

However also from Liu Bei’s bio in SGZ, it said that Chen Deng asks Liu Bei to take over Xu Zhou, but initially Liu Bei refuse. However, when Chen Deng told Liu Bei that Xu Zhou had about 1 million in population and over 100,000 in troops and Kong Rong defaming Yuan Shu that Liu Bei decided to take over Xu Zhou.

So in Liu Bei’s bio, it was never mention that Tao Qian’s will is for Liu Bei to take over XuZhou.

What does Mi Zhu’s bio said?
In Mi Zhu’s bio, all it said was that “Tao Qian die, Zhu (Mi Zhu) listened to Qian (Tao Qian) will, greet Liu Bei in Xiao Pei”. This passage also said nothing regarding Tao Qian giving Liu Bei XuZhou.

What about Tao Qian’s bio? If you wanted to learn more about Lu Bu, then read Tao Qian’s bio. In fact, unless my poor old mind failed me, I could hardly remember any mention of Liu Bei in Tao Qian’s bio.

What about Chen Deng’s bio? My suggestion is that if you are a fan of Sun Ce then don’t read Chen Deng’s bio. Unfortunately, Chen Deng’s bio also does not have anything on Liu Bei.

Also from Liu Bei’s bio, it did mentions that Mi Zhu and the people of XuZhou welcome Liu Bei in. According to Chen Deng, XuZhou had about 1 million population, now even if this is true, it does not mean that the city of Xuzhou itself had 1 million in population. A rough estimate would be somewhere around 150,000 to 250,000. Mi Zhu was mentioned to be a very wealthy person with over 10,000 servants. If 10,000 of Mi Zhu’s servant would come out of the city and welcome Liu Bei, then what do you think the other people in the city would do? Some probably wouldn’t even care lest, however most probably join the crowd to see what all the fusses is about. From that, could anyone say that the people of XuZhou actually loved Liu Bei?

So one question come to mind, did Tao Qian actually gives Liu Bei XuZhou or Liu Bei actually steal XuZhou by using Mi Zhu's trickery? :twisted:
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Re: Han Xin's Great Summer Offensive Pt. 1: Liu Bei and XuZh

Unread postby Iznoach, Legendary Dragon » Tue Dec 03, 2002 10:53 am

Han Xin wrote:So one question come to mind, did Tao Qian actually gives Liu Bei XuZhou or Liu Bei actually steal XuZhou by using Mi Zhu's trickery? :twisted:


Okay. What I gather from this question is that you are asserting Mi Zhu got all of his 10,000 servants to coerce the population to go and meet Liu Bei? And from this simple meeting, Liu Bei somehow managed to steal a whole province? I'm not convinced. I think this is more like what really happened: Liu Bei was sent to help with troops to fend off Cao Cao. He was told to garrison Xiaopei. Tao Qian met with Xuande. He saw that he was a righteous man, of good moral standard, and being that he was old he decided to ask him to take over his position. End of story. Just my opinion...
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Unread postby Jimayo » Tue Dec 03, 2002 10:54 am

In order to steal something, someone has to own it first. The previous Prefect was dead, so how could he be stealing it?
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Unread postby Zhou Mao » Tue Dec 03, 2002 6:24 pm

Well, before we can discuss it, we need to answer the question "Who was the heir to Tao Qian?" If there was no heir, and the province wasn't in anybody's control, Liu Bei merely seized control, and like Jimayo said, didn't "steal" it.
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Re: Han Xin's Great Summer Offensive Pt. 1: Liu Bei and XuZh

Unread postby Chen Kun » Tue Dec 03, 2002 6:41 pm

Han Xin wrote:What about Chen Deng’s bio? My suggestion is that if you are a fan of Sun Ce then don’t read Chen Deng’s bio.

a typical of wuisss,tell bad thing about others and hide their own bad eggs :twisted:
Han Xin wrote: From that, could anyone say that the people of XuZhou actually loved Liu Bei?

So one question come to mind, did Tao Qian actually gives Liu Bei XuZhou or Liu Bei actually steal XuZhou by using Mi Zhu's trickery? :twisted:

I also have a question,so what??without Liu Bei,who will succed the leadership and defend the city from Cao Cao?do u think it would be better to let Cao Cao massacre all the citizens?I don't know about wuisss,but we shuist can't let that happen 8-)
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Re: Han Xin's Great Summer Offensive Pt. 1: Liu Bei and XuZh

Unread postby Guan Suo » Tue Dec 03, 2002 7:15 pm

Chen Kun wrote:
Han Xin wrote:What about Chen Deng’s bio? My suggestion is that if you are a fan of Sun Ce then don’t read Chen Deng’s bio.

a typical of wuisss,tell bad thing about others and hide their own bad eggs :twisted:
Han Xin wrote: From that, could anyone say that the people of XuZhou actually loved Liu Bei?

So one question come to mind, did Tao Qian actually gives Liu Bei XuZhou or Liu Bei actually steal XuZhou by using Mi Zhu's trickery? :twisted:

I also have a question,so what??without Liu Bei,who will succed the leadership and defend the city from Cao Cao?do u think it would be better to let Cao Cao massacre all the citizens?I don't know about wuisss,but we shuist can't let that happen 8-)


you go Chen.
And i dont believe he "stole" it either and if he did like Chen said who cares.It happened and the people either grew to love him or they did love him.

10,000 servents can you back this up :?:
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Unread postby Starscream » Tue Dec 03, 2002 7:17 pm

Linking the information from Liu Bei's bio and Mi Zhu's bio, I get the scenario that Tao Qian wanted Liu Bei to take over the governorship of Xu Zhou even though he did not explicitly confer Liu Bei to be the governor. But the action of asking Mi Zhu to welcome Liu Bei inside Xu Zhou in his dying words seems to be an indirect indication of his choice of "heir". Liu Bei was an outsider and if he's welcomed inside by the dying ruler, it shows that the dying person wanted him to do something important for the city.

I'm not sure about Chen Deng's bio, Quentin, can u tell me which chapter it's in? I'm a bit off-touch tonite!! :lol:
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Tue Dec 03, 2002 7:44 pm

I think Tao Qian's "Without Liu Bei, no peace will come to this province" is telling enough. Like Zhou Mao said, it's not clear that Tao Qian had another person in mind to be heir, otherwise he would've said it. Tao Qian didn't explicitly command Liu Bei to take over the province, but he didn't say anything against it either. Since "stealing" means taking something away from someone without their knowing, I think Liu Bei didn't really steal Xuzhou. Tao Qian knew that he would, and the officers in the province welcomed it.
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Re: Han Xin's Great Summer Offensive Pt. 1: Liu Bei and XuZh

Unread postby Sam » Tue Dec 03, 2002 7:53 pm

Chen Kun wrote:I also have a question,so what??without Liu Bei,who will succed the leadership and defend the city from Cao Cao?do u think it would be better to let Cao Cao massacre all the citizens?I don't know about wuisss,but we shuist can't let that happen 8-)


Cao Cao did massacre the citizens as a result of his father being killed, I believe it were 100, 000 civilians that were killed.
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Re: Han Xin's Great Summer Offensive Pt. 1: Liu Bei and XuZh

Unread postby Jimayo » Tue Dec 03, 2002 8:21 pm

Wang Ping wrote:
Chen Kun wrote:I also have a question,so what??without Liu Bei,who will succed the leadership and defend the city from Cao Cao?do u think it would be better to let Cao Cao massacre all the citizens?I don't know about wuisss,but we shuist can't let that happen 8-)


Cao Cao did massacre the citizens as a result of his father being killed, I believe it were 100, 000 civilians that were killed.


10, 000. And that was considering he was forced to turn back. With no one around to protect Xuzhou, what would he of done to it then?
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