Lu Kang, Visionary General, or Traitor to his Kingdom?

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Lu Kang

Visionary General
54
75%
Traitor to his Kingdom
8
11%
Don't Know/Don't Care
10
14%
 
Total votes : 72

Lu Kang, Visionary General, or Traitor to his Kingdom?

Unread postby Jimayo » Tue Nov 26, 2002 9:43 am

Now we all know my opinion. This man was an extremely brilliant general, who's emperor did not deserve him. He put down 6 rebellions, and led 4 defensive campaigns against Jin, all successful. His only unseccesful campaign was invading Yizhou after it's conquer by Wei, where he was held up at Yong An for 5 months, and forced to retreat when Jin sent reinforcements. But really, if Liu Bei and all his men took a year to take it from the inside, how could we expect Lu Kang to have an easy time getting in? And in the last when he was sent to camp at Jiang Xia, in order to prepare for an attack against Jin, his opponent, one Yang Hu, a highly skilled general himself, would not invade Wu with Lu Kang in command. His final act as CIC, was to refuse an order to invade Jin. An act which would of been suicide for Wu(so how can this make him a traitor?).
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Re: Lu Kang, Visionary General, or Traitor to his Kingdom?

Unread postby Mega Zarak » Tue Nov 26, 2002 2:51 pm

Jimayo Oyamitch wrote:His only unseccesful campaign was invading Yizhou after it's conquer by Wei, where he was held up at Yong An for 5 months, and forced to retreat when Jin sent reinforcements. But really, if Liu Bei and all his men took a year to take it from the inside, how could we expect Lu Kang to have an easy time getting in?


I'm not trying to pick on him but the picture you painted isn't fair to Liu Bei cos the situation in Yi Zhou was vastly different when Lu Kang was involved. Refer to my thread http://www.the-scholars.com/viewtopic.php?t=1811 :D
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Unread postby Jimayo » Tue Nov 26, 2002 9:39 pm

Dude, you know me. I wasn't trying to dis Liu Bei, my point was just that if it would take Liu Bei and his talented generals such a long time considering the advantages they had, how easy is it gonna be for Lu Kang without those advantages?
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Unread postby Mega Zarak » Wed Nov 27, 2002 3:36 am

Jimayo Oyamitch wrote:Dude, you know me. I wasn't trying to dis Liu Bei, my point was just that if it would take Liu Bei and his talented generals such a long time considering the advantages they had, how easy is it gonna be for Lu Kang without those advantages?


Have you considered that Liu Bei was having a much more difficult time at Yi Zhou compared to Lu Kang?

i) Lu Kang outnumbered Luo Xian by a great proportion. Liu Bei was surrounded and possibly outnumbered by Liu Zhang's forces.

ii) Lu Kang attacked Yi Zhou after Shu fell. In addition, Deng Ai and Zhong Hui were killed not long ago. Hence, the defenders in that region were possibly disorganized, confused and their morale couldn't possibly be high.
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Re: Lu Kang, Visionary General, or Traitor to his Kingdom?

Unread postby Iznoach, Legendary Dragon » Thu Nov 28, 2002 10:08 am

Jimayo Oyamitch wrote:His final act as CIC, was to refuse an order to invade Jin. An act which would of been suicide for Wu(so how can this make him a traitor?).


Easily. Let's make a list, shall we?

*If we just go by your reasoning, than Lu Kang refused to attack in the best interests of Wu. :roll:
*He knew that Sun Hao would construe that as treachery, and he would be immediately removed from his position.
*He further knew that "Yang Hu, a highly skilled general himself, would not invade Wu with Lu Kang in command".

Okay. If you take all of that, I think it shows that he was a traitor. By knowingly doing something that would get himself removed, he gave Jin the opportunity to attack Wu (although they sure took their sweet time about it), because he knew they'd never attack as long as he was in charge. One final thing. Just how is it supposed to look to your emperor if your CIC is exchanging gifts with the opposing general? I eagerly await your response...
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Re: Lu Kang, Visionary General, or Traitor to his Kingdom?

Unread postby Jimayo » Thu Nov 28, 2002 10:13 am

Iznoach wrote:*He knew that Sun Hao would construe that as treachery, and he would be immediately removed from his position.


Your assuming that, since there is certainly no evidence of it.

Okay. If you take all of that, I think it shows that he was a traitor. By knowingly doing something that would get himself removed, he gave Jin the opportunity to attack Wu (although they sure took their sweet time about it), because he knew they'd never attack as long as he was in charge. One final thing. Just how is it supposed to look to your emperor if your CIC is exchanging gifts with the opposing general? I eagerly await your response...


Well that would depend on what kind of ruler you are. If you are a good ruler, I would assume you would put someone you trust in the position of CIC, and if you trust him, why would that make you doubt him?
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Re: Lu Kang, Visionary General, or Traitor to his Kingdom?

Unread postby Iznoach, Legendary Dragon » Thu Nov 28, 2002 10:17 am

Jimayo Oyamitch wrote:Well that would depend on what kind of ruler you are. If you are a good ruler, I would assume you would put someone you trust in the position of CIC, and if you trust him, why would that make you doubt him?


I'm sure a good ruler, such as a Cao Cao or a Liu Bei would've done the same thing. That makes it even worse, because Sun Hao wasn't half the ruler that Liu Shan was...

Iznoach wrote:
Jimayo Oyamitch wrote:*He knew that Sun Hao would construe that as treachery, and he would be immediately removed from his position.

Your assuming that, since there is certainly no evidence of it.


Okay, I chose the wrong word there. Let's replace "treachery" with "insubordination" and see how it looks. A commander that directly refuses to follow an order given by the Emperor cannot expect to remain in his position of authority, and there's really no other way to look at it.

It's different in times now, such as in the American military. For instance, it's not considered insubordination if you refuse an order that is unlawful or will potentially harm you or your subordinates. Example: My Lai massacre. When Lt. Whatever-his-name-was gave the order to massacre all those innocent people, they could have simply denied that order and placed their Lieutenant under arrest, and sent him to court martial. However, in ancient Chinese times this was not the case. The Emperor was supposed to be omnipotent, and therefore his word was law. Even though Sun Hao was an idiotic tyrant, Lu Kang was his servant, and should have obeyed his command. He didn't, therefore he's a traitor.
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Re: Lu Kang, Visionary General, or Traitor to his Kingdom?

Unread postby Jimayo » Thu Nov 28, 2002 10:31 am

Iznoach wrote:Okay, I chose the wrong word there. Let's replace "treachery" with "insubordination" and see how it looks. A commander that directly refuses to follow an order given by the Emperor cannot expect to remain in his position of authority, and there's really no other way to look at it.

It's different in times now, such as in the American military. For instance, it's not considered insubordination if you refuse an order that is unlawful or will potentially harm you or your subordinates. Example: My Lai massacre. When Lt. Whatever-his-name-was gave the order to massacre all those innocent people, they could have simply denied that order and placed their Lieutenant under arrest, and sent him to court martial. However, in ancient Chinese times this was not the case. The Emperor was supposed to be omnipotent, and therefore his word was law. Even though Sun Hao was an idiotic tyrant, Lu Kang was his servant, and should have obeyed his command. He didn't, therefore he's a traitor.


Says you. Isn't said that a general in the field accepts no orders(or something like that, I forget the actual phrase). Excersising that right only pisses off bad rulers.
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Re: Lu Kang, Visionary General, or Traitor to his Kingdom?

Unread postby Iznoach, Legendary Dragon » Thu Nov 28, 2002 10:37 am

Jimayo Oyamitch wrote:Says you. Isn't said that a general in the field accepts no orders(or something like that, I forget the actual phrase). Excersising that right only pisses off bad rulers.


I know the phrase you're using (can't remember it exactly either). However, I don't think that applies in this case. They weren't actually on a campaign, they were just manning a garrison. There is a difference.

Also, remember how many times other commanders were given orders in the field from their Emperor and obeyed them? Zhuge Liang was recalled (on the brink of a major victory, no less) by the latter lord, and I seem to recall some other incidents of this but can't remember specifics (give me time, I'll look them up for ya). Anyway, it doesn't seem like this practice of Generals accepting no orders in the field wasn't really followed too much...
Last edited by Iznoach, Legendary Dragon on Thu Nov 28, 2002 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Lu Kang, Visionary General, or Traitor to his Kingdom?

Unread postby Jimayo » Thu Nov 28, 2002 10:53 am

Iznoach wrote:I know the phrase you're using (can't remember it exactly either). However, I don't think that applies in this case. They weren't actually on a campaign, they were just manning a garrison. There is a difference.

Also, remember how many times other commanders were given orders in the field from their Emperor and obeyed them? Zhuge Liang was recalled (on the brink of a major victory, no less) by the latter lord, and I seem to recall some other incidents of this but can't remember specifics (give me time, I'll look them up for ya). Anyway, it doesn't seem like this practice of Generals accepting no orders in the field wasn't really followed to much...


Doesn't matter, the rule was still there, and if you check again you'll see that Lu Kang was on a campaign, he was sent to the border of Wei to prepare for an invasion.
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