Chinese Wiki Translations of People of Jin

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Re: Chinese Wiki Translations of People of Jin

Unread postby capnnerefir » Wed Jun 26, 2013 11:08 pm

A little while ago, I attempted to begin a rough translation of some chapters of the ZZTJ leading up to the establishment of Eastern Jin. I had limited success, but I was able to get the names of some people and positions they held before and after Sima Yan's ascention to the throne. I'd love to know more about these individuals because they all seem to have been pretty important in Jin.

Sima Wang: General of the Agile Cavalry [biaoji jiangjun]; became Minister Over the Masses [situ]
He Ceng: Minister Over the Masses [situ] under Sima Zhao and became Chancellor [chengxiang] under Sima Yan.
Shi Bao: Successful general under Sima Zhao; Became Grand Commander [dasima] when Sima Yan took the throne.
Zheng Chong: An Excellency under Sima Zhao. He became Grand Guardian [taibao] under Sima Zhao and Grand Tutor [taifu] when Sima Yan took the throne.
Wang Xiang: Excellency under Sima Zhao, he became Grand Guardian [taibao] under Sima Yan.
Wang Shen: General of the Agile Cavalry [biaoji jiangjun] under Sima Yan
Sima Fu: Former Excellency and Grand Tutor to Cao Huan, he became Grand Governor [taizi] in Jin.
Chen Qian: General of the Chariots and Cavalry under Sima Zhao; became Grand General [da jiangjun] under Sima Yan.
Zhang Hua: One of Sima Yan's most trusted agents and later an ally of Jia Nanfeng. Helped write the Records of the Three Kingdoms

If anyone wants to do a better translation, here's the passage from which I drew these names and positions.

十二月,壬戌,魏帝禅位于晋;甲子,出舍于金墉城。太傅司马孚拜辞,执帝手,流涕歔欷不自胜,曰:“臣死之日,固大魏之纯臣也。”丙寅,王即皇帝位,大赦,改元。丁卯,奉魏帝为陈留王,即宫于鄴;优崇之礼,皆仿魏初故事。魏氏诸王皆降为候。追尊宣王为宣皇帝,景王为景皇帝,文王为文皇帝。尊王太后曰皇太后。封皇叔祖父孚为安平王,叔父干为平原王、亮为扶风王、伷为东莞王、骏为汝阴王、肜为梁王、伦为琅邪王,弟攸为齐王、鉴为乐安王、机为燕王,又封群从司徒望等十七人皆为王。以石苞为大司马,郑冲为太傅,王祥为太保,何曾为太尉,贾充为车骑将军,王沈为骠骑将军。其馀文武增位进爵有差。乙亥,以安平王孚为太宰,都督中外诸军事。未几,又以车骑将军陈骞为大将军,与司徒义阳王望、司空荀顗,凡八公,同时并置。帝惩魏氏孤立之敝,故大封宗室,授以职任,又招诸王皆得自选国中长吏;卫将军齐王攸独不敢,皆令上请。
Last edited by capnnerefir on Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Ren Kai, Jin Minister.

Unread postby Jordan » Thu Jun 27, 2013 8:40 am

Tarrot wrote:The only thing I know is that there's no splitting of the names, as they lead all to one link. 且萬能 is Qiewanneng, who is one of the people you referenced. 猝跋韓 is Cubahan. Looking online, I don't see any alternate transliterations, so I'm thinking the other person you referenced was mistaken. I even double-checked my 8000 character dictionary, and there's no reference to alternate pronunciations. I'll edit the wiki translation since they probably are the chieftains. LW might know a little more on the archaic pronunciations.


Yeah, I wouldn't doubt it. I'm not sure how accurate the information I got was at all. Alas, this is one of those times where I wish I was proficient in reading literary Chinese. It's something I have to work on.
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Re: Chinese Wiki Translations of People of Jin

Unread postby Tarrot » Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:49 pm

Looked up Shujineng's father, Tufa Shoutian, but found nothing of substance other than he was his grandfather. Shoutian's father had a small bio, but no known interaction with the Chinese from what I can gather.

I'll try to do one name a day for wiki translations. Starting with Ren Kui's bio, Zheng Chong http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%84%AD%E6%B2%96

Zheng Chong (?-274) zi Wen He, from Xingyang, Kaifang. At the end of the Eastern Han, he was around during the end of the Three Kingdoms and the early years of Jin. In CaoWei he became a Taibao, and in Jin he became a Taifu.

Whole Life

Zheng Chong was born of humble origins, but studied classic works meticulously. As a result, he completely understood the philosophies of Confucianism and the Hundred Schools of Thought. When Cao Pi was named the crown prince, he had previously searched for and recommended low-ranking knowledgeable scholars, and Zheng Chong was selected for his literature (I think this is he tutored Cao Pi in literature and he had a low rank when he was selected), and he would later hold positions as the Shangshulang as well as the governor of Chen Liu. When Cao Fang ascended, during Cao Shuang's dictatorship, Zheng Chong was appointed as a Congshizhonglang, and he would later become a Sanjichangshi, as well as a Supervisor of Attendants. In 251 he would be given the rank Sikong. In 254 Cao Mao ascended, and as Zheng Chong and Zheng Xiaotong had previously taught Cao Mao about the Book of History, both men were rewarded. Zheng Chong became Situ the next year. In 260, Cao Huan ascended, and Zheng Chong would be given the rank of Taibao, above the Three Dukes, as well as be made marquis of Shouguang. Although Zheng Chong worked in the office of the Taifu, he didn't participate in politics or strategic decisions. Because he so thoroughly researched the Histories, later when Sima Zhao ordered Jia Chong and Yang Hu to draw up new etiquette and laws, he told them both to first consult with Zheng Chong before making their decisions.

In 265, Cao Huan abdicated to Sima Yan, and Zheng Chong drew up the abdication letter. With the establishment of Jin, Zheng Chong was appointed Taifu, and was named Duke of Shouguang. Zheng Chong, He Ceng, Wang Xiang, and Xun Yi due to old age and ailments were not able to come to the court often. The Yushizhongcheng Hou Shiguang and the Silixiaowei Li Xi presented a memorial to remove them from their posts, but Sima Yan refused. Zheng Chong would later beg permission to retire many times but was not permitted. In 273 Zheng Chong again asked permission to resign, and Sima Yan let him reside at his official mansion, and continue as the Taifu, without having to attend court, with people sent to consult him on every major event. In addition to rewards Zheng Chong's descendent Zheng Hui was appointed Sanjichangshi. Zheng Chong would die the next year, and Sima Yan would grieve heavily, and would confer on him the title Taifu, as well as a coffin, court clothes, money, silk, etc. as well as the posthumous title Chenggong.

Personality Characteristics

Although he came from humble origins, he was very polite and articulate with his speech, exhibiting no passion or greed, and therefore he was able to meticulously study his Confucian Classics as well as historical records. He also had a graceful style, with etiquette in all his actions, which would come off naturally, preserving his integrity. He also wouldn't sing the praises of his home town, so his home town didn't show him proper respect.
Last edited by Tarrot on Fri Jun 28, 2013 7:04 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Chinese Wiki Translations of People of Jin

Unread postby capnnerefir » Thu Jun 27, 2013 10:23 pm

Thanks a lot for the Zheng Chong translation. I'm always eager to learn more about the Jin ministers and generals.
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Re: Chinese Wiki Translations of People of Jin

Unread postby Cao Chao » Fri Jun 28, 2013 12:00 am

I noticed that there is a tái fǔ (台輔) and a tài fu (太傅) in the biography. Anyone know what the difference is?

Minor corrections.
Zheng Chong (?-274) zi Wen He, from Kaifang city in Henan. At the end of the Eastern Han, he was around during the end of the Three Kingdoms and the early years of Jin. In CaoWei he became a Taibao, and in Jin he became a Taifu.

from Yingyang, Kaifeng
Zheng Chong was born of humble origins, but studied classic works meticulously. As a result, he completely understood the Hundred Schools of Thought through Confucianism.

Hailing from humble origins, Zheng Chong meticulously studied the classics, completely understanding the philosophies of Confucianism and the Hundred Schools of Thought.
When Cao Fang ascended, during Cao Shuang's dictatorship, he recommended Zheng Chong as a Congshizhonglang, and he would later become a Sanjichangshi, as well as a Supervisor of Attendants.

Zheng Chong was appointed
In 251 he would work under the Sikong.

In 251, he was given the rank of Sikong.
In 254 Cao Mao ascended, and Zheng Chong had previously taught Cao Mao about the Book of History, and along with the Shizhong Zheng Xiaotong (birthday is 193-258 according to Wiki for those who want to edit it) were rewarded. Zheng Chong became the Situ the next year.

In 254, Cao Mao ascended the throne. Because Zheng Chong and Zheng Xiaotong (according to Zheng Xiaotong's bio) had both taught Cao Mao the Book of History, and Zheng Xiaotong was rewarded, Zheng Chong became Situ the next year.
In 260, Cao Huan ascended, and Zheng Chong would work under the Taibao, as well as be made marquis of Shouguang.

Zheng Chong was given the rank of Taibao, above the Sangong.
Zheng Chong, He Ceng, Wang Xiang, and Xun Yi all grew ill due to old age and were not able to come to the court often.

Due to old age and ailments, Zheng Chong, He Ceng, Wang Xiang and Xun Yi infrequently attended court.
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Re: Chinese Wiki Translations of People of Jin

Unread postby Tarrot » Fri Jun 28, 2013 5:48 am

Eventually I want to work on a giant Rank topic, for reference when you see either the English or the Chinese. I know the second was Grand Tutor. I checked Rafe's work and didn't see the first in there, so I'm not certain what it does. Quick google search brings something up, so its not just a mistake, but not certain. Thanks a lot for the corrections, one quick question for something you said.

Cao Chao wrote:
Zheng Chong (?-274) zi Wen He, from Kaifang city in Henan. At the end of the Eastern Han, he was around during the end of the Three Kingdoms and the early years of Jin. In CaoWei he became a Taibao, and in Jin he became a Taifu.

from Yingyang, Kaifeng


- Is Ying an older translation? My online dictionary gives 滎陽 as Xingyang.
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Re: Chinese Wiki Translations of People of Jin

Unread postby Cao Chao » Fri Jun 28, 2013 3:23 pm

Sorry, that was a typo on my part.
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Re: Chinese Wiki Translations of People of Jin

Unread postby Tarrot » Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:05 pm

Ok, going with Wang Xiang next, bio at http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E7%8E%8B%E7%A5%A5

*looks at bio*

I think I'm going to cry, or at least do this over a couple days.


Wang Xiang (185-269), zi Xiuzheng, from Langya (modern-day Linyi in Shandong), served in the Eastern Han, Wei, and Jin dynasties. He reached the ranks of Sikong and Taiwei in Wei, and reached Taibao in Jin. He was widely known for his filial piety, and was known as one of the 24 paragons of Filial Piety, which was for an incident where he lied down on ice to get fresh carp for his step-mother. He was also known for his calligraphy, being the ancestor of Wang Xizhi, and the brother from another mother of Wang Lan. (yes, that is what it says)

Whole Life

As the chaos continued in the final years of the Han, Wang Xiang brought his stepmother from the Zhu clan and his sibling Wang Lan to Lujiang to avoid the chaos, and lived in seclusion for over 20 years, not responding to nominations for office. Later, the CaoWei provisional governor Lu Qian traveled to Wang Xiang to appoint him Biejia, Wang Xiang initially refused, but Wang Lan advised him to accept, and prepared an ox cart, to which Wang Xiang agreed. Lu Qian wanted Wang Xiang to handle Xuzhou civil cases. At that time there were robbers within the borders, so Wang Xiang convinced the troops to repeatedly patrol to deal with the robbers, and brought peace to the region, while at the same time easily carrying out his policy. The local people all praised Wang Xiang.

He later selected scholars to be the Wenxian magistrates, and was later appointed Dasinong (Minister of Agriculture). In 254, the noble Cao Mao ascended, and because he participated in Sima Shi's establishment plan and was made Marquis of Guannei (?), as well as appointed Guangluxun (Supervisor of Attendants), later becoming a Silixiaowei. The next year, Guanqiu Jian and Wei Jin rebelled in Shou Chun, Wang Xiang went with Sima Shi to suppress them. After the war he would be granted food from 400 households, and he was bestowed the Wansuiting Marquis, and promoted to Taichang (Minister of Ceremonies). Later as the emperor Cao Mao began his studies at the imperial college, Wang Xiang would be appointed one of the three aged, become the Emperor's teacher, and instruct him in how to rule.

In 259, Cao Mao tried to overthrow Sima Zhao, but was killed by Jia Chong and Cheng Ji. The counsellors all grieved over his death, with Wang Xiang's face full of tears, bawling "Insolent Servant" (him, or the killer, or the officials) and mad everyone feel embarassed. In 260, he was promoted to Sikong. In 264 he was promoted to Taiwei as well as being a Shizhong. The same year, Sima Zhao would establish the 5 orders of nobility (unsure), and Wang Xiang would be bestowed Marquis of Suiling, and food from 1,600 households.

The next year, Sima Yan founded the Jin Empire, Wang Xiang was made Taibao, was bestowed the Duke of Suiling, as well as adding seven offices (huh?). Wang Xiang with He Zeng and Zheng Chong because of old age, rarely attended the court to meet with the Emperor. Sima Yan as a result sent Ren Kui to their houses to get their opinions on policy matters. Wang Xiang pleaded many times to resign, but it was always rejected. The Yushizhongcheng Hou Shiguang requested they be dismissed from their posts due to illness and age, but Sima Yan praised them, saying he still relied on and appreciated them. Additionally, he begged to retire many times, and that it was improper of the person in charge of the Yushitai to discuss such matters. Wang Xiang requested to retire again, so Sima Yan ordered him to stay at his official residence and retain his position, and bestowed upon him many articles as well as making him the Zhangzi Wangzhao to serve in this position (another unsure).

In 269, Wang Xiang died at the age of 85, and was postumously named Duke of Suilingyuan.

Personality Characteristics

Wang Xiang was viewed as one of the 24 paragons of Filial Piety, since most people praised him for his filial piety. His birth mother died when he was young, and his step-mother from the Zhu clan treated him poorly, to the point of always slandering Wang Xiang when talking to his father Wang Rong. But even if asked to clean up cow poop, he would still be respectful, and when his father grew ill he would still change his clothes out of respect and cook his medicine. When the red apple trees would bloom, his mother would ask him to guard the trees. Wang Xiang would every day, no matter the weather, would approach the apple tree, hug it, and weep, as he was scared the apples would be blown down. Wang Xiang acted this way toward his step-mother for over 30 years. When she died, Wang Xiang made funeral arrangements for her and grieved to the point he was sickly thin, to the point of needing to use a cane to stand up. It is clearly seen that he was extremely filial pious, and that he was not bothered by his step-mother's extreme treatment.

Wang Xiang received people's respect, mostly due to his noble virtues. Even when he would show respect to the newly crowned King of Jin Sima Zhao, while Xun Yi would bow before Sima Zhao, Wang Xiang would merely clasp his hands. This is because although Sima Zhao was the honorable King of Jin, and Prime Minister, Wang Xiang was still one of the Three Excellencies, with there being little difference in rank, and felt he couldn't abandon decorum at a whim. This would harm the prestige of Wei, as well as the virtues of Jin. On his death, not only did court officials of Jin pay him respect, but also relatives as well as former officials, with no one holding negative feelings, with his grandson Wang Rong exclaiming "The Taibao could communicate so clearly." (Help if anyone can on translation)

Anecdotes

The story most familiar to people would be the story of him laying on ice to catch carp. In the middle of winter his stepmother wanted to eat fresh fish, and Wang Xiang without hesitation went to the freezing lake, stripped off his clothes, and tried to use his body-temperature to melt the ice. As Wang Xiang laid there, the lake suddenly split open, and two carp jumped out so Wang Xiang coud please his step-mother. The people of the time thought it was because his actions moved the heavens. However, the book of Jin says that Wang Xiang merely broke open the ice, and that he didn't lie on it.

Wang Xiang's stepmother one time said she wanted to eat cooked Yellow Sparrow, and not long after 10 Yellow Sparrows flew into the house, so he could give his mother food. The neighbors said Wang Xiang's filial piety moved the heavens.

Wang Xiang got along well with his brother Wang Lan, with Wang Xiang being whipped numerous times by his mother, while Wang Lan would try to hold his mother back begging her to stop. A while later, he would advise his mother not to mistreat Wang Xiang, and Zhu Shi would show some restraint. Later, when his step-mother had a difficult task for Wang Xiang, Wang Lan would immediately go to help his brother; This extended to that if Wang Xiang's step-mother gave a difficult task to Wang Xiang's wife and kids, Wang Lan's wife and kids would help as well. At this point she stopped with the tasks. As Wang Xiang's reputation grew, his step-mother hated him more and more, and planned to poison Wang Xiang's wine to kill him. Wang Lan knew of this and had the same drink as Wang Xiang, which made her scared that she'd poison Wang Lan, abandoning her plan. Later, when she would cook food for Wang Xiang, Wang Lan would always taste it first, so shewould be afraid of poisoning Wang Lan, and would abandon the idea of poisoning Wang Xiang to death.

The Shishuoxinyu, chapter on Morality and Conduct, said that Wang Xiang's step-mother once in the middle of the night tried to behead Wang Xiang, but Wang Xiang was not in his bed and she only cut the air. When Wang Xiang discovered this, he kneeled before her and asked her to kill him, which finally moved her to at long last look upon Wang Xiang as her own son.

===========================================================================

Of note, came by random across another guy, Meng Zong, who there seems to be extremely little info about, but has a decent-sized wiki. I'll do him next since he's a new guy. http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%AD%9F%E5%AE%97
Last edited by Tarrot on Sat Nov 09, 2013 3:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Chinese Wiki Translations of People of Jin

Unread postby capnnerefir » Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:11 pm

Two notes I have on Ren Kai's biography:

Tarrot wrote:Jia Chong at this time had Xun Yi and Feng Dan slander Ren Kai's extravagance, such as using the Imperial utensils, in addition to sending his shangshu You Pushe (think its a name), and had the King of Gaowang Sima Gui present a memorial to Sima Yan.

Tarrot wrote:In 283, the shangshu Zuo Pushe, and Right Glorious Grand Master (yeah... don't get this), Wei Shu was appointed Situ, replacing Shan Tao.


I believe that You Pushe and Zuo Pushe aren't names, but ranks. I've seen the ranks of shangshu you pushe [尚書右僕射] and shangshu zuo pushe [尚書左僕射] before when writing biographies from the ZZTJ. Both are supervisory positions within the Imperial Secretariat. I translate them as Right (and Left) Supervisor of the Masters of Writing. The Left Supervisor of the Masters of Writing [shangshu zuo pushe 尚書左僕射] ranked slightly higher than the Right Supervisor.

This Su Gui fellow held both ranks in his lifetime.

Regarding Wang Xiang Xiang and those 24 Steps of Filial Piety:
This link here gives a list of "24 Paragons of Filial Piety". I'm not sure about that "crouching ice requesting carp" business, but I think the earlier line means that he exhibited the behavior of these paragons.
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Re: Chinese Wiki Translations of People of Jin

Unread postby Tarrot » Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:35 pm

I'll edit that tomorrow. Some of this stuff, I know I'm missing something on what they should mean, but I don't know enough about it, or I know what I'm saying is wrong but I try to make it make sense, or I just leave it as wrong for when I can fix it later.

Double-checking the list, the translation is "12. Lying Down On The Ice To Get Carp For His Stepmother: Wang Xiang." This is going to be in the anecdote section, but Wang Xiang was treated absolutely horribly by his step-mother, and the fact he showed such filial piety to her in spite of her treatment was miraculous. From Rafe:

"On one occasion, when she asked
for fresh fish in the middle of winter, Wang Xiang went to the frozen over, took offhis
clothes and attempted to break the ice; as he did so, however, it opened itself and two fish
jumped out. Such instances of his good will and magical benefits became celebrated."
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