Cao Cao's Life

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Cao Cao's Life

Unread postby Chen Kun » Mon Nov 18, 2002 1:08 am

Guan Yu spared Cao Cao's life in Chibi battle.From your perspective,was it the right decision?what was the effect to the history,China,Wu and especially to Liu Bei?
If you were Guan Yu,what would have you done?I think capturing Cao Cao alive would be the right decision :?
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Mon Nov 18, 2002 1:13 am

If I were Guan Yu, I wouldn't have asked to be sent to Huarong in the first place, because I would know that I'd be sorely tempted to let Cao Cao go (being the nice person that I am :D). But if I did sign that thingymagik with Zhuge Liang (as in the novel), I would have captured him :?

If Guan Yu had captured Cao Cao, Sun Quan would take over the world and establish the great empire of Wu.... Mwahahahahaha :evil2:
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Unread postby Mu Shu » Mon Nov 18, 2002 1:39 am

I think this is another example of Kongming's subtle manipulation at work...

When Liu Bei first met Kongming, Kongming had laid out his grand strategy. If Wei was too strong, then Liu Bei should ally with Wu. If Wu was too strong, then Liu Bei should ally with Wei. Hence always ensuring the balance of power and thus enabling the kingdom of Shu to form.

Before Red Cliffs, Wei was too strong. After Red Cliffs, Wu was too strong. Kongming knew that Guan Yu would let Cao Cao go. Thats exactly why he was given the task. This was a brillant strategy on Kongming's part.
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Unread postby Wen Choung » Mon Nov 18, 2002 4:23 am

Hmm...If I was in Lord Guan's place, I'd have captured Cao Cao or executed him right then and there...depending on what the orders were. But Guan Yu being himself, I suppose what he did was inevitable. Whether or not letting him go was a good or bad idea, it is hard to say because we can't see what would have happened otherwise.

The other question was what would happen to the rest of China. Let's see...Wu was more established and much larger than "Shu" at the time. Liu Bei had to seek refuge from Wu. This would have made it easy for Sun Quan to utterly crush Liu Bei.

On the other hand, Liu Bei did have the services of Zhuge Liang, who I wouldn't doubt had every ability to turn the tide for Liu Bei!

But then on the other hand, someone would surely rise to power to fill that power vacuum left in Wei...someone from Cao Cao's line, or someone as fierce as perhaps the Xiahou's, especially since they were of the same family line, or maybe even someone DANGEROUS like Guo Jia (even though there is no one whom I could think of that would be of that caliber)!

Zhuge Liang would have forseen the treachery of Sun Quan and Zhou Yu and had already escaped and captured a few cities as well, thus establishing a small area. Then with a few great plans of Zhuge Liang, Liu Bei defeats Wu in numerous battles. Wu would be crippled while Liu Bei keeps attacking and capturing Wei land, growing in size and number. Wei would onyl have a fraction of its previous land while Sun Quan might also be expanding on Wei land as well. Then Liu Bei totally crushes Wu and takes the rest of China. And they all lived happily ever after. The end. :D

That's probably one of the things that would happen, but it wouldn't be as fun to read about since there's only two states as opposed to three. The more the merrier!
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Unread postby DarkAnthem » Mon Nov 18, 2002 5:40 am

Wen Choung wrote:On the other hand, Liu Bei did have the services of Zhuge Liang, who I wouldn't doubt had every ability to turn the tide for Liu Bei!


not likely, Wu would be way too large for Zhuge Liang to overcome. Even the god-like Zhuge Liang based on the novel wouldn't have a chance. Wu would be even more powerful than Wei ever was, so if Zhuge could somehow crush Wu he should have been able to crush Wei beforehand, which he couldn't at all.

even based on the novel, could Zhuge Liang defeat Wei in all those northern campaigns? no, so how could he possibly defeat a Wu with about 600000 troops (after gaining all that land) when Liu Bei at the time probably had about 10000? (I know I probably got the numbers wrong but that's about the odds). The odds were much better than that in the northern campaigns, yet Zhuge Liang still couldn't win. So obviously he would have no chance against Wu if Cao Cao died.

Wen Choung wrote:But then on the other hand, someone would surely rise to power to fill that power vacuum left in Wei...someone from Cao Cao's line, or someone as fierce as perhaps the Xiahou's, especially since they were of the same family line, or maybe even someone DANGEROUS like Guo Jia (even though there is no one whom I could think of that would be of that caliber)!


Guo Jia was dead by the battle of Chi Bi.

Wen Choung wrote:Zhuge Liang would have forseen the treachery of Sun Quan and Zhou Yu and had already escaped and captured a few cities as well, thus establishing a small area. Then with a few great plans of Zhuge Liang, Liu Bei defeats Wu in numerous battles. Wu would be crippled while Liu Bei keeps attacking and capturing Wei land, growing in size and number. Wei would onyl have a fraction of its previous land while Sun Quan might also be expanding on Wei land as well. Then Liu Bei totally crushes Wu and takes the rest of China. And they all lived happily ever after. The end. :D


After Cao Cao's death Wu would quickly swap at least half of Wei's land, making them about 1000 times stronger than Liu Bei's forces. Winning a few battles would be a mere scratch to Wu.

Zhuge's original plan was the best, to let Cao Cao live. That way Wei was significantly weakened and Wu wouldn't expand so fast, so Shu has a chance to grow. The odds of beating Wu after Cao Cao's death would be even smaller than defeating Wei before Chi Bi, so killing Cao Cao wouldn't be a good plan even if Zhuge Liang COULD defeat Wu somehow.
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Unread postby Zhou Tai » Mon Nov 18, 2002 1:22 pm

It amazes me so much, how people think Zhuge Liang knows everything and every outcome...hes not a seer for crying out loud.

Mu Shu wrote:I think this is another example of Kongming's subtle manipulation at work...

When Liu Bei first met Kongming, Kongming had laid out his grand strategy. If Wei was too strong, then Liu Bei should ally with Wu. If Wu was too strong, then Liu Bei should ally with Wei. Hence always ensuring the balance of power and thus enabling the kingdom of Shu to form.


When did he supposivley lay out this great plan? I dont remember this, he had to ally with Wu since Wu was his only hope and option. Or Keep Running away which Shu was often good at :shock: *OUCH* (Im jokin.....or am I?)

And If Wu did get stronger than Wei, From previous encounters and history, im sure as hell that Liu Bei would never join hands with Cao Cao, would you ally with someone who made there intentions clear to stop and kill you.?

Ooops...um forget about the Zhou "Im Gonna Kill Liu Bei" Yu :lol: :lol: :lol:
What? Am I suppose to impress you with a phrase. ><
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Unread postby Mu Shu » Mon Nov 18, 2002 2:23 pm

Zhou Tai wrote:It amazes me so much, how people think Zhuge Liang knows everything and every outcome...hes not a seer for crying out loud.

When did he supposivley lay out this great plan? I dont remember this, he had to ally with Wu since Wu was his only hope and option. Or Keep Running away which Shu was often good at :shock: *OUCH* (Im jokin.....or am I?)

And If Wu did get stronger than Wei, From previous encounters and history, im sure as hell that Liu Bei would never join hands with Cao Cao, would you ally with someone who made there intentions clear to stop and kill you.?

Ooops...um forget about the Zhou "Im Gonna Kill Liu Bei" Yu :lol: :lol: :lol:


Some people think ROTK is wildly exaggerated fiction and Zhuge Liang is not as clever as he seems in the novel. I disagree. I really believe that Zhuge Liang was the most brilliant strategist of his time.

Liu Bei might be hesitant to join with Cao Cao but Zhuge Liang definitely wasn't if it suited his purposes. Remember, the US once supported Saddam Hussein and the Taliban. Hitler once allied with Stalin. Alliances are never fixed, and neither are enemies. Because the situation is never fixed but constantly changing. The US allied with the USSR and China to defeat Germany and Japan. Then the situation changed... and the US allied with Germany and Japan against USSR and China. Britain has done the same thing in Europe. Sometimes allying with Germany against France. Other times allying with France against Germany. Charles Darwin observed that those species who survive are those that are best able to adapt to their changing environments.

And as you have pointed out, Zhou You and Sun Quan where just as eager to break their alliance with Liu Bei as Kongming was eager to secretly help Cao Cao.
Last edited by Mu Shu on Mon Nov 18, 2002 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby Chen Kun » Mon Nov 18, 2002 2:37 pm

if Kongming was overrated,then what about his opponents?what about Sima Yi and Zhou Yu?even with stronger power they couldn't defeat and loss many times to Kongming :roll:
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Unread postby Han Xin » Mon Nov 18, 2002 4:26 pm

Chen Kun wrote:if Kongming was overrated,then what about his opponents?what about Sima Yi and Zhou Yu?even with stronger power they couldn't defeat and loss many times to Kongming :roll:


When did Zhou Yu or Sima Yi lost to Zhuge Liang? Liu Bei didn't even lets Zhuge Liang anywhere near his army while he was alived. :lol:
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Unread postby Chen Kun » Mon Nov 18, 2002 4:36 pm

Han Xin wrote:
Chen Kun wrote:if Kongming was overrated,then what about his opponents?what about Sima Yi and Zhou Yu?even with stronger power they couldn't defeat and loss many times to Kongming :roll:


When did Zhou Yu or Sima Yi lost to Zhuge Liang? Liu Bei didn't even lets Zhuge Liang anywhere near his army while he was alived. :lol:

oh yeah,it was Zhuge Liang who conquered Jing Zhou,wasn't it?where was Zhou Yu at that time :twisted:
Sima Yi with his superior in power but couldn't defeat Zhuge Liang,so I considered it as a loss :x
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