Maritime Vessels in the RTK Era

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Maritime Vessels in the RTK Era

Unread postby Mega Zarak » Mon Oct 28, 2002 7:13 am

Since I've scanned two photos depicting models of two maritime vessels that was reportedly used in the RTK era. I took these photos from a Chinese Historical Encyclopedia that I possess.

The larger type:
Dou Jian in Chinese or something like battle junk (I called it junk because it looks like one). This is usually the flagship or the main battleship (something like the Star Destroyer class).

Image

The smaller type:
Meng Chong in Chinese or something like a fast assault boat. It was noted in the text (that comes with the picture) that Huang Gai used such vessels for his fire attack during the battle of Chi Bi.

Image

Note: A mention of such vessels in SGZ can be found for example in the biography of Zhou Yu whereby it stated that Liu Biao once had 1000+ Dou Jian and Meng Chong. Note also that these are just models (possibly based on archaeological evidents?) and discrepancies may be present between these models and the real thing (obviously). :D
Last edited by Mega Zarak on Fri Jan 30, 2004 5:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby Han Xin » Mon Oct 28, 2002 8:01 am

From Lu Meng's bios it seem that a battleships during RTK era were nothing more than an enhance version of a common merchant ships, hence Liu Bei's troops in JingZhou was easily fooled by Lu Meng during the 219 invasion of JingZhou. I am just wondering if there were other classes of warship during RTK time? I don't think that there are just two classes of ship even in 2nd century China.
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Unread postby Jimayo » Mon Oct 28, 2002 8:07 am

Certainly looks like it would take a decent sized crew, say 30? Does it not, Zhang Re... I mean Han Xin?
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Unread postby Han Xin » Mon Oct 28, 2002 8:13 am

Jimayo Oyamitch wrote:Certainly looks like it would take a decent sized crew, say 30? Does it not, Zhang Re... I mean Han Xin?


:lol: Wrong forum...

Both the MengChong and the DouJian had change throughout chinese history. I am not certain that it is actually the real model created from description given during 2nd century AD or later. Beside, Great Deer had not yet answer me if there were other classes of warship in 2nd century China.
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Unread postby Jimayo » Mon Oct 28, 2002 8:17 am

Han Xin wrote:
Jimayo Oyamitch wrote:Certainly looks like it would take a decent sized crew, say 30? Does it not, Zhang Re... I mean Han Xin?


:lol: Wrong forum...

Both the MengChong and the DouJian had change throughout chinese history. I am not certain that it is actually the real model created from description given during 2nd century AD or later. Beside, Great Deer had not yet answer me if there were other classes of warship in 2nd century China.


Don't hold me to this, but I believe there were three classes of military junks.
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Unread postby Mega Zarak » Mon Oct 28, 2002 8:44 am

Han Xin wrote:
Jimayo Oyamitch wrote:Certainly looks like it would take a decent sized crew, say 30? Does it not, Zhang Re... I mean Han Xin?


:lol: Wrong forum...

Both the MengChong and the DouJian had change throughout chinese history. I am not certain that it is actually the real model created from description given during 2nd century AD or later. Beside, Great Deer had not yet answer me if there were other classes of warship in 2nd century China.


I'm sure there're other classes, e.g. sampan-class. :twisted:
Anyway, I guess these are the two main classes since they were mentioned in SGZ. I've yet come across names refering to other classes of maritime vessels. Perhaps you may like to enlighten all of us with any new information if you come across any during your daily dosage of Wu bios. :D

Anyway, you know very well that I'm a person who doesn't like to take things at face values. Hence, I agree to your statement that the design of these vessels changes over time. (also if you care to read the last sentence of my first post).
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Tue Oct 29, 2002 3:26 am

The Doujian looks a little too modern to me... I can't see Liu Biao owning 1000 of these guys :lol:

Any idea regarding the scale? How many of them can you actually fit at Chibi? I didn't think really large boats would be practical for river warfare...
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Unread postby Mega Zarak » Tue Oct 29, 2002 3:49 am

Lady Wu wrote:The Doujian looks a little too modern to me... I can't see Liu Biao owning 1000 of these guys :lol:

Any idea regarding the scale? How many of them can you actually fit at Chibi? I didn't think really large boats would be practical for river warfare...

Unfortunately, I don't have the scale. Also, from some of the RTK writeups that I've come across, quite a no. of authors actually agreed that Cao's navy at Wu Ling was only part of his southern forces since it was not possible for all his ships to be situated at Wu Ling given the size of the place.

If you find 1000 a large no., how about 6000?? It said in Sun Ce's SGZ bio (with ref. to Wu Lu) that after defeating Huang Zhu, the Wu army captured some 6000 vessels! Mind you, they used the word "Sou" to describe the vessels! :lol:

Anyway, after some reading on Wu bios, I come across another time of ship called You Chuan. Need to find out more about them before I can post more here. :D
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Unread postby Han Xin » Tue Oct 29, 2002 3:51 am

Lady Wu wrote:The Doujian looks a little too modern to me... I can't see Liu Biao owning 1000 of these guys :lol:

Any idea regarding the scale? How many of them can you actually fit at Chibi? I didn't think really large boats would be practical for river warfare...


I am not sure if it is too modern, Jiang Qin's ship was thought to be 5 decks high, unlest Great Deer believe its another exaggeration of JiangBiao Zhuan. :lol: One of my disbelief over some of the figures regarding vessels was that when they wrote several hundred of MengChong DouJiang, I am not sure if other smaller class vessel are included as well.
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Unread postby Mega Zarak » Tue Oct 29, 2002 4:09 am

Han Xin wrote:
Lady Wu wrote:The Doujian looks a little too modern to me... I can't see Liu Biao owning 1000 of these guys :lol:

Any idea regarding the scale? How many of them can you actually fit at Chibi? I didn't think really large boats would be practical for river warfare...


I am not sure if it is too modern, Jiang Qin's ship was thought to be 5 decks high, unlest Great Deer believe its another exaggeration of JiangBiao Zhuan. :lol:


I believe there's another Wu guy, He Qi, whose ships were very impressive looking (or at least from its description in He Qi's SGZ bio). Btw, where did you get the info on Jiang Qi's 5 deck high ships? If the model of a dou jian is reasonably accurate, I think it's possible for the ship to be 5 deck high (including the hull?).
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