Guan Yu..your opinion on him

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What do you think about Guan Yu

I like him, he is been underestimated to much..
46
48%
I don't like him...he is overrated..
49
52%
 
Total votes : 95

Re: Guan Yu..your opinion on him

Unread postby Li_Shengsun » Mon Nov 11, 2019 1:31 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:mule?

It could just have been he was in the southern areas under Liu Qi or the bits Liu Bei conquered and stuck with the power in the place he was posted after Liu Biao's death.


i see. the later makes more sense, he was probably under Liu Qi's command. If he was stuck with the power in the place after Liu Biao's death, that would make him serving under Cao Cao.

On the arrogance/stubbornness, probably. It is difficult given lack if information to see how he developed but it would make sense if it grew worse as he became more successful, more famous, higher officer, the arrogance of age. Certainly easy for the... self confidence/arrogance needed to be a great warrior spilling into other things as things went on

On suicidal... there is no evidence he ever was (bar the nature of the job is inherently risky). If about why he was willing to surrender back then and wasn't now as viceroy of Jing, less about attitude, more about everything was different, his own position, that of Liu Bei's, the diplomatic, PR and political aspects, the likelihood of return, different opposing warlord so different calculations had to be made.


Makes sense.

I think Yu Jin being experienced in naval affairs is from novel?


well, it somehow made it looked like it. But, i wasn't meant he is experienced in that way.
I were meant that Yu Jin was among the general who were briefly fought Sun Quan and Liu Bei on chibi. He mustve had a tiny bit experience in navy right?

It wasn't a naval battle, when flood happened the remaining Wei soldiers went to high ground and tried to fight on. Yu Jin realized they couldn't win and were cut off from help so surrendered, saving the lives of likely thousands of soldiers. Pang De ordered his men to fight on, killed those that suggested surrender then when all his men had died, left the land he was on, grabbed a boat and tried to get to Fan rather then put up the same fight he had ordered his dead men.

He got his men slaughtered and he didn't follow through with his own life, he was happy for them to die and for him to make it Fan. I don't consider him a coward for that, irresponsible I'll probably agree with.

I don't think his men were on his mind and there is no hint that Pang De ever felt any shame or regret for losses of life under him. While I also doubt he was feeling super loyal to Cao Cao, I think his family circumstances were rather more in his mind then the soldiers


yea, irresponsible is a right one. ive only had bits of memory about he fought briefly on the boat and then got thrown into the river, but i dont remember how he got into boat.


While such words from Pang De/historian are more meant for dramatic effect then accuracy, I think Pang De has a case on Ma Chao. The warlord had gained something of a reputation for abandoning his allies so made an easy attack line and in Pang De's case, he had been left in Hanzhong under Zhang Lu while Ma Chao betrayed Zhang Lu. That could have ended badly for Pang De as an officer of Ma Chao's


Wasnt it mentioned Ma Chao had no choice but to left Pang De when he was dispatched to help Liu Zhang because Pang De was gravely ill that time. Pang De also never participating Zhang Lu in the defense of Hanzhong because of it wasnt it? or maybe i mixed it again with Novel? :?

On the cards, I think your last bit is probably touching the truth. Pang De was determined not to surrender, nothing Guan Yu says is going to win him over so Pang De makes a show of defiance (and historians probably make it a bit more dramatic in the retelling). Guan Yu played his offer in a good enough way and I don't think the way he phrased it was an issue


I see.
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Re: Guan Yu..your opinion on him

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Nov 12, 2019 9:22 am

well, it somehow made it looked like it. But, i wasn't meant he is experienced in that way.
I were meant that Yu Jin was among the general who were briefly fought Sun Quan and Liu Bei on chibi. He mustve had a tiny bit experience in navy right?


Strictly speaking he isn't mentioned at Chibi and may have been busy elsewhere pacifying some of Cao Cao's southern holdings. If he was there (certainly possible), that would have been very tiny expirence and probably not much help if he ever got in a real naval battle

Wasnt it mentioned Ma Chao had no choice but to left Pang De when he was dispatched to help Liu Zhang because Pang De was gravely ill that time. Pang De also never participating Zhang Lu in the defense of Hanzhong because of it wasnt it? or maybe i mixed it again with Novel? :?


Novel on both and don't worry, that happens to all of us
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Re: Guan Yu..your opinion on him

Unread postby Taishi Ci 2.0 » Tue Nov 12, 2019 11:55 am

Pang De didn't get all of his men killed; most of them surrendered despite his wishes.

(Pang De's SGZ, jiuwan's translation)

The generals Dong Heng, Dong Chao and others desired to surrender [to Guan Yu]. Pang De executed all of them. The battle started at dawn and lasted past mid-day. Guan Yu pressed the attack despite the arrows being now depleted and lacking in troops. Pang De told the du jiang Cheng He: “I have heard that the virtuous general does not fear death. The ardent soldier doesn’t ruin his name in order to live. This day… is the day of my death.”

The battle had worsened and the waters were overfilling. Most of the officers and soldiers had surrendered. Pang De and only the standard bearer (hui xia jiang) were left. They boarded a small ship in attempt to return to Cao Ren’s barracks. The water filled the ship and the Shu armies surrounded the boat.


將軍董衡、部曲將董超等欲降,德皆收斬之。自平旦力戰至日過中,羽攻益急,矢盡,短兵接戰。德謂督將成何曰:「吾聞良將不怯死以苟免,烈士不毀節以求生,今日,我死日也。」戰益怒,氣愈壯,而水浸盛,吏士皆降。德與麾下將一人,五伯二人,彎弓傅矢,乘小船欲還仁營。水盛船覆,失弓矢,獨抱船覆水中,為羽所得。(Pang De's SGZ, my translation)

When the general Dong Heng, the subordinate commander Dong Chao, and others wanted to surrender, Pang De arrested and beheaded them. Pang De kept up the fight from the break of dawn to past noon, fighting hard all the while. But Guan Yu’s troops greatly pressed their attack, and when they ran out of arrows, their drew their short blades and closed in for close combat. Pang De said to his subordinate general Cheng He, “I have always heard that a superior general will stand tall in the face of death rather than try to escape, and a martyr will uphold his duty to the bitter end rather than try to save his life. This day will be the day of my death.” So his rage kept him going in battle, and his zeal made him stronger. But the floodwaters only became worse, and most of Pang De’s officers and soldiers surrendered to the enemy. Pang De led one of his subordinate generals and two of his 五伯s to take bows and arrows with them and get into a small boat, planning to return to Cao Ren’s camp. But the floodwaters were so turbulent that the boat capsized; they lost the bows and arrows, and they could only cling to the overturned boat in the midst of the waters. They were captured by Guan Yu.


龐德在隄上,被甲持弓,箭不虛發,自平旦力戰,至日過中,羽攻益急;矢盡,短兵接,德戰益怒,氣愈壯,而水浸盛,吏士盡降。德乘小船欲還仁營,水盛船覆,失弓矢,獨抱船覆水中,爲羽所得。(ZZTJ)

Pang De was on an embankment. He wore armour and held a bow, and he hit his mark with every shot, maintaining resistance from morning past midday. Guan Yu attacked more and more fiercely, and Pang De’s arrows were exhausted, but he continued the struggle hand to hand. Even as the flood continued to rise, Pang De fought on unafraid, but all his men surrendered. Then Pang De took a small boat to go back to Cao Ren’s camp, but the water rose still further, and his boat overturned. Having lost his weapons, he held on to the upturned boat alone amongst the waves, and he was captured by Guan Yu.


Even the novel says so:

Pang De cut down Dong Heng and Dong Chao right in the battlefield and then shouted, "Anyone who says surrender shall be as these two."

So the survivors made a desperate effort to beat off their enemies, and they held their own up to midday. Then Guan Yu's marines redoubled their efforts, and the arrows and stones rained down upon the defenders, who fought desperately hand to hand with their assailants.

"The valorous leader fears death less than desertion; the brave warrior does not break faith to save his life," cried Pang De. "This is the day of my death, but I will fight on to the last. And you, General, should fight to your end, too."

So Cheng He pressed on till he fell into the water by an arrow of Guan Yu, and then the soldiers yielded.
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Re: Guan Yu..your opinion on him

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Nov 12, 2019 1:57 pm

Sorry, I was recalling the killing of those who wanted to surrender. I withdraw my complaint about Pang De's behaviour (bad judgement on the situation is worst that can be said) and thanks for the correction
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Re: Guan Yu..your opinion on him

Unread postby Li_Shengsun » Thu Nov 14, 2019 4:23 am

Taishi Ci 2.0 wrote:Pang De didn't get all of his men killed; most of them surrendered despite his wishes.

(Pang De's SGZ, jiuwan's translation)

The generals Dong Heng, Dong Chao and others desired to surrender [to Guan Yu]. Pang De executed all of them. The battle started at dawn and lasted past mid-day. Guan Yu pressed the attack despite the arrows being now depleted and lacking in troops. Pang De told the du jiang Cheng He: “I have heard that the virtuous general does not fear death. The ardent soldier doesn’t ruin his name in order to live. This day… is the day of my death.”

The battle had worsened and the waters were overfilling. Most of the officers and soldiers had surrendered. Pang De and only the standard bearer (hui xia jiang) were left. They boarded a small ship in attempt to return to Cao Ren’s barracks. The water filled the ship and the Shu armies surrounded the boat.


將軍董衡、部曲將董超等欲降,德皆收斬之。自平旦力戰至日過中,羽攻益急,矢盡,短兵接戰。德謂督將成何曰:「吾聞良將不怯死以苟免,烈士不毀節以求生,今日,我死日也。」戰益怒,氣愈壯,而水浸盛,吏士皆降。德與麾下將一人,五伯二人,彎弓傅矢,乘小船欲還仁營。水盛船覆,失弓矢,獨抱船覆水中,為羽所得。(Pang De's SGZ, my translation)

When the general Dong Heng, the subordinate commander Dong Chao, and others wanted to surrender, Pang De arrested and beheaded them. Pang De kept up the fight from the break of dawn to past noon, fighting hard all the while. But Guan Yu’s troops greatly pressed their attack, and when they ran out of arrows, their drew their short blades and closed in for close combat. Pang De said to his subordinate general Cheng He, “I have always heard that a superior general will stand tall in the face of death rather than try to escape, and a martyr will uphold his duty to the bitter end rather than try to save his life. This day will be the day of my death.” So his rage kept him going in battle, and his zeal made him stronger. But the floodwaters only became worse, and most of Pang De’s officers and soldiers surrendered to the enemy. Pang De led one of his subordinate generals and two of his 五伯s to take bows and arrows with them and get into a small boat, planning to return to Cao Ren’s camp. But the floodwaters were so turbulent that the boat capsized; they lost the bows and arrows, and they could only cling to the overturned boat in the midst of the waters. They were captured by Guan Yu.


龐德在隄上,被甲持弓,箭不虛發,自平旦力戰,至日過中,羽攻益急;矢盡,短兵接,德戰益怒,氣愈壯,而水浸盛,吏士盡降。德乘小船欲還仁營,水盛船覆,失弓矢,獨抱船覆水中,爲羽所得。(ZZTJ)

Pang De was on an embankment. He wore armour and held a bow, and he hit his mark with every shot, maintaining resistance from morning past midday. Guan Yu attacked more and more fiercely, and Pang De’s arrows were exhausted, but he continued the struggle hand to hand. Even as the flood continued to rise, Pang De fought on unafraid, but all his men surrendered. Then Pang De took a small boat to go back to Cao Ren’s camp, but the water rose still further, and his boat overturned. Having lost his weapons, he held on to the upturned boat alone amongst the waves, and he was captured by Guan Yu.


Even the novel says so:

Pang De cut down Dong Heng and Dong Chao right in the battlefield and then shouted, "Anyone who says surrender shall be as these two."

So the survivors made a desperate effort to beat off their enemies, and they held their own up to midday. Then Guan Yu's marines redoubled their efforts, and the arrows and stones rained down upon the defenders, who fought desperately hand to hand with their assailants.

"The valorous leader fears death less than desertion; the brave warrior does not break faith to save his life," cried Pang De. "This is the day of my death, but I will fight on to the last. And you, General, should fight to your end, too."

So Cheng He pressed on till he fell into the water by an arrow of Guan Yu, and then the soldiers yielded.


thx for the enlightenment, as expected that Pang De is not an irresponsible man, hes just strict but he is also brave and honorable man. :D
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