Guan Yu..your opinion on him

Best threads of the SGYYS, for your viewing pleasure.

What do you think about Guan Yu

I like him, he is been underestimated to much..
46
48%
I don't like him...he is overrated..
49
52%
 
Total votes : 95

Re: Guan Yu..your opinion on him

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:27 am

Double Post (past one on previous page) but onto the debate as it were

As reminder, Liu Bei DID execute few other old guard loyalist dude though, ZGL doesnt seems to be very hard headed in defending then as well. Li Miao is special for ZGL i guess. Special because his antagonistic behavior could raises ZGL's name t ppl on Shu, oops sorry, no offense. :D


He did. It would depend on the situation as to when Zhuge Liang would defend and when he wouldn't (he was not good at confrontation, how he read Liu Bei, how he read public mood). I doubt Li Miao being antagonistic actually helps Zhuge Liang's popularity

No sure how that would be offensive but thanks for the offered apology

Why Zhao Yun and Dong Zhuo would be better as comparison? as i remember correctly, both person never get onto the same situation as Guan Yu did.


There is no comparison I can think of to the Jing situation itself but in terms of pulling their men out alive, Zhao Yun (after defeat to Cao Zhen) managed to retreat without a loss while Dong Zhuo was trapped by Liang forces but managed to manoeuvre his entire army out of trouble via pretending to fish.

Uh-huh, ok. cut off via south. theres no indication northern route is cut off either. Wei chooses to be on defensive, they wouldnt led their men to attack Guan Yu should he return back and make his way to Shangyong, doing that would create an opportunity for that crafty Lu Meng to took Xiangyang.


Wei chose not to pursue Guan Yu into Jing to prevent trouble with Wu, that doesn't mean they wouldn't cut off any attempt for Guan Yu to retreat back via their lands. Given Wu's grip on Jing, I don't see why they wouldn't cut off the retreat route north or, if that was viable, why Guan Yu didn't use it.

Given those conditions and the view of the leading western historian on three kingdoms, I'm inclined to go with that. I see no reason, once Guan Yu committed himself to attempting to do his job, that Guan Yu would be able to retreat.

Now you see the problem in this statement?
"It was in fact possible, despite his disadvantage, that Guan Yu might be able to drive Lü Meng away, or at least compel another negotiated settlement. He was faced, however, not only by a military coup, but also by admirable propaganda."

Driven away or compel a negotiation. defeated by Military Coup and admirable propaganda.

That statement is like stating that Guan Yu's men are in high morale. Not even had any set back even after Xu Huang slaughtered many of his men and burned his camp, hes even has a great negotiation skill as well! Thats how you make a statement when you admire someone highly, sugar coated it. Nice! :lol:


The statement notes Guan Yu came in at a disadvantage. Last Wu invaded, it was settled by... a negotiated settlement. The dispute before then? Settled (well sort of) by negotiated settlement so there is a track record between Shu and Wu of disagreements, including via invasion, settled by negotiations. At no point does De Crespigny says Guan Yu was a great negotiator in any of his works that I'm aware of but if you have evidence that he did so, please point it out

I kept stating that Guan Yu's men are no longer in fighting condition after his asses get beaten by Xu Huang. and they said still possible to retake Jing back? Just how arrogant and stubborn Guan Yu is, i just cant imagine it. As I expected He was imagining himself to be Xiang Yu, thats great. :lol:
So far I know, Xiang Yu can win despite in disadvantageous position, because his men are well trained, able to cope in stressful situation and in high morale. Now you see why i mention about Guan Yu trying to mimic someone from Zuo Zhuan? :lol:

"A good leader and good general knows when to retreat and when to fight back" (i guess this one was Sun Zhu's)

To make an attempt on fighting when your morale is dwindling, is the same as reckless and suicidal. Therefore, Guan Yu is NOT good leader and general.


Your stating something doesn't make it so.

You know who else did this sort of thing so was "arrogant" (at least that one fits Guan Yu's personality) and "stubborn", "comparing hmself to Xiang Yu" (no evidence he did that), "reckless", "suicidal", "not good leader and general" for fighting after defeat? Cao Cao, Jia Xu/Zhang Xiu, Yuan family, the Wuhuan, Liu Bei, Lu Xun, so on and so forth. The first camapign of the civil war was won by Sun Jian who started the camapign by having his army smashed by Xu Rong in a worse defeat then Guan Yu had at Fan. Yet Sun Jian didn't pack up and go home becuase he lost, he regrouped and fought back, without him the coalition would have lost but instead he defeated Hu Zhen, Dong Zhuo and Lu Bu. Sun Jian wasn't arrogant, calling himself the next Xiang Yu, he was one of the early era's best generals, he knew his duty and that a commander doesn't run away from his post becuase things got a little tough.

Now, bar Jia Xu, nobody celebrates defeat as the perfect time to fight. Ideally all such times would come when army is in tip top condition, the commander is in good health and good emotional state and morale is high but that was rarely the case, commanders just had to keep fighting and hope to overcome the odds for the sake of their lords or for ambitions. Life doesn't land you perfect conditions too often in any part of life and sure, it was less then ideal timing (as De Crespigny mentioned, Guan Yu would be entering at a disadvantage) but such is life. If Guan Yu waited for perfect conditions (that might never come), it mean abandoning his officers (for all he knows, forces were still under siege from Lu Meng), his duty and allowing Wu to cement their grip on Jing. Lu Meng isn't going to pull back and wait for a time to suit Guan Yu then invade again, Guan Yu has to play with the hand he was dealt with and deal with the responsibilities he had.

I think you over-egg how bad things were for Guan Yu after Fan. Ideal? No. Yes defeat at Fan meant loss of men (though how much Yu Jin's soldiers brought in means hard to tell how that balanced out) though the records don't suggest Guan Yu's losses were particularly notable. He still had troops left in Xiangyang, he was able to retreat unharassed, there is nothing to suggest they were not in fighting condition. Morale would have been hit by defeat and by news of Wu's attack but it was hardly a demoralizing defeat. Commanders have had to come back from a lot worse and keep fighting

Guan Yu had a duty to Liu Bei, the wider good of Shu and his officers in Jing. Sure, he could just flee to Yi at the first sign of trouble and be as derelict in his duty as Jiao He of Qing and Jiang Wei but I don't see that as a good thing. All Guan Yu knew is Wu had, for the second time, attempted an invasion. He could not have foreseen the scale of Lu Meng's success becuase it is hard to find any 3kingdom taking of a province (bar a complete surrender from the ruler) that went so smoothly and so quickly. Guan Yu would have been expecting his officers to be fighting on, besieged and awaiting aid from the main army, whatever condition they were in, requiring his help. That he could try to link up with said forces and, if need be, try to grind the camapign out till Liu Bei arrived. If he runs, he hands Jing over to Lu Meng and Wu

Personal Thought
to be honest, im kind of rejoicing when Guan Yu was captured and beheaded. I'm even praising Lu Meng to do a great job in shattering his pride. Just imagine his look when his men left him, when he was captured and about to be executed, that would the best scene, ever. Guan Yu wouldve prob thought this on his mind, he was needed everywhere and they wont killed him should he be captured (his recent experience with Cao Cao), the worst outcome of him dying on battlefield. capturing and executing him, shattered his imagination of being needed and died on battlefield. the best of the best outcome! Congratz Lu Meng! 8-)


Personally, I don't rejoice. Guan Yu had children, one of whom was executed alongside him, friends, probably a wife, retainers for whom his death was a personal tragedy. There are deaths that were a relief for the wider good of others like Zhang Fei and Gan Ning no longer being around and the safety that must have brought to others but Guan Yu was not such a man so I see no reason to rejoice in the misery of others that his death would have brought

I praise Lu Meng. Not for shattering pride but for a brilliant master stroke of a camapign that strengthened his kingdom and for doing his duty. It is an insult to reduce him to being about Guan Yu, as bad as the "great betrayal" narrative that damaged Lu Meng's reputation

I imagine Guan Yu's last weeks were probably horrible. The emotional shattering of having men leave him, likely realizing what had happened with the damage to the cause and the family he had fought so hard for, he probably knew his fate was death if cuaght given his constant moving about to avoid capture as he it not accused in texts of being deluded, just arrogant. I would hate to have had to go through something like that. I am not going to make wild claims about Guan Yu's mindset, we should always try to be careful when trying to judge a figure's thought process, particularly people's last moments as that deserves... respect or at least consideration, should not be used for bashing or for caricature

I would have thought the best outcome was peace to the three kingdoms and the, if only temporary, end to civil war that killed millions. Or the end of famines across the north and Central Plains once agricultural structures were restored. Or the deaths of vile men. If talking about Jing alone then surely the best was the nearly bloodless taking so limited casualties? The security of his kingdom that taking Jing arguably brought? I don't see how the death of Guan Yu helped wider society or is the best thing about the whole thing

If only you would praise Lu Meng for his wider actions rather then turn him into about your feelings towards Guan Yu
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 16705
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Re: Guan Yu..your opinion on him

Unread postby Li_Shengsun » Thu Jun 27, 2019 9:53 am

Dong Zhou wrote:He did. It would depend on the situation as to when Zhuge Liang would defend and when he wouldn't (he was not good at confrontation, how he read Liu Bei, how he read public mood). I doubt Li Miao being antagonistic actually helps Zhuge Liang's popularity


Ah yea, celebrating for his death then get executed weren't an increase of his popularity.
Defending a man who are antagonistic and ungrateful from getting executed because of offending the superior weren't as bad as retorting a joke from someone, thats nice. In a sense, its still same as sugar coating.

There is no comparison I can think of to the Jing situation itself but in terms of pulling their men out alive, Zhao Yun (after defeat to Cao Zhen) managed to retreat without a loss while Dong Zhuo was trapped by Liang forces but managed to manoeuvre his entire army out of trouble via pretending to fish.


In Zhao Yun's situation, his defeat was inevitable, since he was given a command of untrained troop. Liang forces were barbarian led by Beigong Boyu, i dont think he's wise enough to realize such ploy.

-Edit- Different than Guan Yu, Zhao Yun intentionally put himself at risk in order to bring his potential to the fullest (even though i personally think Zhou Yun would never been in any risk whether he intentionally or not, his skill are the real thing)

Wei chose not to pursue Guan Yu into Jing to prevent trouble with Wu, that doesn't mean they wouldn't cut off any attempt for Guan Yu to retreat back via their lands. Given Wu's grip on Jing, I don't see why they wouldn't cut off the retreat route north or, if that was viable, why Guan Yu didn't use it.

Given those conditions and the view of the leading western historian on three kingdoms, I'm inclined to go with that. I see no reason, once Guan Yu committed himself to attempting to do his job, that Guan Yu would be able to retreat.


Yea, we no longer know what really happened that time, just the praise of historian about him.
But reading back and assessing Guan Yu's trait, he chose not to retreat via Wei's land is most likely he underestimated Lu Meng, mainly he was Wu's general.
The other possibility that Guan Yu was angry as Meng Da refused to send reinforcement and that he's too proud to receive help from a man he view inferior to him. So, rather than losing face due to receiving help from inferior man, he'd rather face his 'weak' enemy head-on in battle.


The statement notes Guan Yu came in at a disadvantage. Last Wu invaded, it was settled by... a negotiated settlement. The dispute before then? Settled (well sort of) by negotiated settlement so there is a track record between Shu and Wu of disagreements, including via invasion, settled by negotiations. At no point does De Crespigny says Guan Yu was a great negotiator in any of his works that I'm aware of but if you have evidence that he did so, please point it out


You stated:
"It was in fact possible, despite his disadvantage, that Guan Yu might be able to drive Lü Meng away, or at least compel another negotiated settlement."

I replied:
"hes even has a great negotiation skill as well!"

Now you even tried to use my reply on your statement against me :lol:
At no point does De Crespigny says Guan Yu was a great negotiator in any of his works that I'm aware of but if you have evidence that he did so, please point it out

I'll admit you're a good debater. Trying so hard to defend to man you admire is quite admirable, but please don't twist your own statement to attack other. :wink:

You know who else did this sort of thing so was "arrogant" (at least that one fits Guan Yu's personality) and "stubborn", "comparing hmself to Xiang Yu" (no evidence he did that)


Sorry, he never think that way. Perhaps his condition being locked by two enemies country makes me think he's trying to achieving Xiang Yu's feat.

Now, bar Jia Xu, nobody celebrates defeat as the perfect time to fight. Ideally all such times would come when army is in tip top condition, the commander is in good health and good emotional state and morale is high but that was rarely the case, commanders just had to keep fighting and hope to overcome the odds for the sake of their lords or for ambitions. Life doesn't land you perfect conditions too often in any part of life and sure, it was less then ideal timing (as De Crespigny mentioned, Guan Yu would be entering at a disadvantage) but such is life. If Guan Yu waited for perfect conditions (that might never come), it mean abandoning his officers (for all he knows, forces were still under siege from Lu Meng), his duty and allowing Wu to cement their grip on Jing. Lu Meng isn't going to pull back and wait for a time to suit Guan Yu then invade again, Guan Yu has to play with the hand he was dealt with and deal with the responsibilities he had.

I think you over-egg how bad things were for Guan Yu after Fan. Ideal? No. Yes defeat at Fan meant loss of men (though how much Yu Jin's soldiers brought in means hard to tell how that balanced out) though the records don't suggest Guan Yu's losses were particularly notable. He still had troops left in Xiangyang, he was able to retreat unharassed, there is nothing to suggest they were not in fighting condition. Morale would have been hit by defeat and by news of Wu's attack but it was hardly a demoralizing defeat. Commanders have had to come back from a lot worse and keep fighting

Guan Yu had a duty to Liu Bei, the wider good of Shu and his officers in Jing. Sure, he could just flee to Yi at the first sign of trouble and be as derelict in his duty as Jiao He of Qing and Jiang Wei but I don't see that as a good thing. All Guan Yu knew is Wu had, for the second time, attempted an invasion. He could not have foreseen the scale of Lu Meng's success becuase it is hard to find any 3kingdom taking of a province (bar a complete surrender from the ruler) that went so smoothly and so quickly. Guan Yu would have been expecting his officers to be fighting on, besieged and awaiting aid from the main army, whatever condition they were in, requiring his help. That he could try to link up with said forces and, if need be, try to grind the camapign out till Liu Bei arrived. If he runs, he hands Jing over to Lu Meng and Wu


ah, so losing both of his camp aren't bad? Just how much more the historian trying to sugar coat things on what happen after the battle. Where the supplies are stored? on some wodden oxen cart that can be transported anytime when the camp attacked and falls to enemies hand?
Suppose his morale are high, and Lu Meng opted to defend Jing with his men instead of commencing a propaganda. Just how long Guan Yu's men would last in the siege battle? You mention it yourself on one of the thread that a siege battle would take long time and would do a lot more casualty to attacker than the defender. Please give me an explanation how De Crespigny would say that Guan Yu would be able to drive Lu Meng away?
And why my hypothetical opinion that he should retreat via other route to survive, saving the retake of Jing for another day from the stronger position is wrong?

Personally, I don't rejoice. Guan Yu had children, one of whom was executed alongside him, friends, probably a wife, retainers for whom his death was a personal tragedy. There are deaths that were a relief for the wider good of others like Zhang Fei and Gan Ning no longer being around and the safety that must have brought to others but Guan Yu was not such a man so I see no reason to rejoice in the misery of others that his death would have brought


Well, that was main point of the debate right? that he should prioritize his men's life instead of attempting to retake the lost city, he reap what his sow, his decision is what causes those who was alongside him to be executed.

I praise Lu Meng. Not for shattering pride but for a brilliant master stroke of a camapign that strengthened his kingdom and for doing his duty. It is an insult to reduce him to being about Guan Yu, as bad as the "great betrayal" narrative that damaged Lu Meng's reputation

I imagine Guan Yu's last weeks were probably horrible. The emotional shattering of having men leave him, likely realizing what had happened with the damage to the cause and the family he had fought so hard for, he probably knew his fate was death if caught given his constant moving about to avoid capture as he it not accused in texts of being deluded, just arrogant. I would hate to have had to go through something like that. I am not going to make wild claims about Guan Yu's mindset, we should always try to be careful when trying to judge a figure's thought process, particularly people's last moments as that deserves... respect or at least consideration, should not be used for bashing or for caricature

I would have thought the best outcome was peace to the three kingdoms and the, if only temporary, end to civil war that killed millions. Or the end of famines across the north and Central Plains once agricultural structures were restored. Or the deaths of vile men. If talking about Jing alone then surely the best was the nearly bloodless taking so limited casualties? The security of his kingdom that taking Jing arguably brought? I don't see how the death of Guan Yu helped wider society or is the best thing about the whole thing

If only you would praise Lu Meng for his wider actions rather then turn him into about your feelings towards Guan Yu


Well, you're right. that was an insult for Lu Meng, sorry.

I'm sorry if i'm bashing Guan Yu so hard, i just simply doesn't like how people keep saying that he's a great general eventhough in fact he is not. Even worse, he's even worshiped as God.
Last edited by Li_Shengsun on Fri Jun 28, 2019 3:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
Everyone has flaws. It's a matter of finding the ones you can live with.
User avatar
Li_Shengsun
Initiate
 
Posts: 70
Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:35 am

Re: Guan Yu..your opinion on him

Unread postby Xu Huang fan » Fri Jun 28, 2019 12:10 am

correct me of i'm wrong, but i remember Guan Yu's tales of Godhood after death being mostly a redemption arc for him and has him overcoming the flaws that he held in his mortal life.

i could be mistaken since i never had the chance to actually read about it, but it feels like his godhood story becomes alot more inspirational, the more flawed of a person he was while he was alive.
User avatar
Xu Huang fan
Langzhong
 
Posts: 517
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:24 pm

Re: Guan Yu..your opinion on him

Unread postby Li_Shengsun » Fri Jun 28, 2019 4:07 am

Xu Huang fan wrote:correct me of i'm wrong, but i remember Guan Yu's tales of Godhood after death being mostly a redemption arc for him and has him overcoming the flaws that he held in his mortal life.

i could be mistaken since i never had the chance to actually read about it, but it feels like his godhood story becomes alot more inspirational, the more flawed of a person he was while he was alive.


That was the twist. He was the Han Heroes, many people admire him because of it. So he get all the good stories, tale, everything. Indirectly making people forgetting his bad deed.
He was the cause of the three brotherhood fell apart, if he chose to retreat after his victory against Yu Jin-Pang De rather then pushing out his luck in a vain attempt to take the city, none of the history would happen, his family and his follower life is save, Jingzhou would never fall to Wu, and the battle of Shaoting would never happen.
Personally im impressed when reading the battle of Fan, that even the heavens helped him to achieve victory. But after securing such victory, he pushes his luck further until its nothing left, resulting his defeat and then death. Then leading to the chains of event where Liu Bei, Zhang Fei and many other good officers died as result of failed campaign on Shaoting. Making Zhuge Liang shouldering all the duty by himself.

Well, i know Shu would fall eventually, that is inevitable in time. But with the three brother alive, Shu would survive a lot longer.
Everyone has flaws. It's a matter of finding the ones you can live with.
User avatar
Li_Shengsun
Initiate
 
Posts: 70
Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:35 am

Re: Guan Yu..your opinion on him

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Jun 28, 2019 7:18 am

Li_Shengsun, if he had chosen to retreat when Fan was at weak, people would be going "what the hell". It would be one of the great mysteries of all time why, when a city was rocking, why anyone would abandon a camapign where the whole point is to take Fan and provide a route into the heart of Wei. I can't think of any commander that wouldn't seek to take advantage of the moment. The accusations of arrogance are more towards his handling of Jing, not his trying to take a city.

In case my pm hasn't reached you Li_Shengsun you might have missed a post on the previous page

Xu Huang fan wrote:correct me of i'm wrong, but i remember Guan Yu's tales of Godhood after death being mostly a redemption arc for him and has him overcoming the flaws that he held in his mortal life.

i could be mistaken since i never had the chance to actually read about it, but it feels like his godhood story becomes alot more inspirational, the more flawed of a person he was while he was alive.


He was a saint before the novel but yes in the novel, it adds cheat and immoral kills while bigging up his arrogance in his fall and the ghost, as well as allowing him to kill Wu figures, is about having him face up to his mistakes.
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 16705
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Re: Guan Yu..your opinion on him

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Fri Jun 28, 2019 10:16 am

Li_Shengsun wrote:Well, i know Shu would fall eventually, that is inevitable in time. But with the three brother alive, Shu would survive a lot longer.


What is your reasoning for thinking this? Guan Yu's death is tied in with the loss of Jingzhou. Cao Cao still emptied Hanzhong of the populace, making any northern march nearly impossible to succeed and without JIngzhou the claimant state of Liu Bei's Han only had one route of attack. Why would Liu Bei be anymore successful with this than either Zhuge Liang or Jiang Wei? Jiang Wei, by the way, had some of the more impressive victories of the era. Gu Pass alone shook Wei to their core when they were, arguably, at their strongest after all.

Liu Bei was a very experience commander having fought constantly for much of his adult life, but experience does not always net positive results nor does inexperience net negative results. Dealing with what-if's is too problematic. There are too many factors, and making claims such as "Shu would have survived longer if only x" does not take into account every factor, because we do not know every factor. I have my issues with Guan Yu, those that know me are well aware of that, but I don't see how him not dying in 219 would keep Shu afloat any longer than history showed. It's purely speculative without any evidence. We have zero proof to suggest that any of the three would've put in place some plan that would hold. Shu had an abudant pool of talent during their final years. Luo Xian, Liu Yin and Huo Yi are men that I would proudly laud as some of the bravest, most loyal men of the era. Their feats rival many of the greats. If they could not keep Shu alive, what hope would Guan Yu who lost JIngzhou, Zhang Fei who lost Xuzhou and Liu Bei who lost his Easterward Campaign have?
"Looking at Zhong Hui is like viewing an armory, one sees only spears and lances"
— Pei Kai
Check out this list of historical resources I have.
Check out this list of cited biographies I have written.
User avatar
DaoLunOfShiji
Scholar
 
Posts: 335
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:26 pm
Location: "A genius like Cao Zhi, as martial as Cao Cao."

Re: Guan Yu..your opinion on him

Unread postby Xu Huang fan » Fri Jun 28, 2019 5:11 pm

i mean Shu might've fallen waaaayyyy later if Guan Yu did survive this battle, sure. but i'm not sure there's any way of knowing how his survival would've changed or not changed anything, i mean all the brothers were getting pretty old around this time (around they're 50's, we've had other generals die at far younger in the era) him surviving here might've just had him dying in his bed afew months later for all we know.

what i'm trying to say is we just don't have enough information to figure out what would've happened if Guan Yu acted differently and survived to really guess what would've happened afterwards, there's alot more variables to work with to take account for, unlike something like "What if Yuan Shao's Son's could get along get unite against Cao Cao" which i think would've just had things go alot better for the Yuans and alot more people can agree with that over Guan Yu's "what if" situation here.

for the record i remember this thread from when i first joined the site and i voted "no i don't like guan yu" on the pole in the thread, i am still not a fan of him for reasons that change depending on if we're talking the novel version, the historical version, or the entertainment media version, if i had to criticize Guan Yu for anything regarding the handling of Jing it would be stealing supplies from Sun Quan's army during his march, and that he could not manage to hold onto the loyality of all of his men like Mi Fang and Fu Shi Ren which allowed Lu Meng to snatch them up, not this retreat plan that definitely requires foresight that nobody in his shoes would've had in the actual moment.
User avatar
Xu Huang fan
Langzhong
 
Posts: 517
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2011 11:24 pm

Re: Guan Yu..your opinion on him

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Jun 29, 2019 7:31 am

Liu Bei's complaint of stomach problems spreading suggests Liu Bei was very ill so even without stress of what happened, hard to see him living longer. Maybe Jing's fall added to Zhang Fei's stress but he had a history of brutality on his men so may have been assassinated anyway
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 16705
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Re: Guan Yu..your opinion on him

Unread postby Li_Shengsun » Mon Jul 01, 2019 12:58 pm

Xu Huang fan wrote:i mean Shu might've fallen waaaayyyy later if Guan Yu did survive this battle, sure. but i'm not sure there's any way of knowing how his survival would've changed or not changed anything, i mean all the brothers were getting pretty old around this time (around they're 50's, we've had other generals die at far younger in the era) him surviving here might've just had him dying in his bed afew months later for all we know.

what i'm trying to say is we just don't have enough information to figure out what would've happened if Guan Yu acted differently and survived to really guess what would've happened afterwards, there's alot more variables to work with to take account for, unlike something like "What if Yuan Shao's Son's could get along get unite against Cao Cao" which i think would've just had things go alot better for the Yuans and alot more people can agree with that over Guan Yu's "what if" situation here.

for the record i remember this thread from when i first joined the site and i voted "no i don't like guan yu" on the pole in the thread, i am still not a fan of him for reasons that change depending on if we're talking the novel version, the historical version, or the entertainment media version, if i had to criticize Guan Yu for anything regarding the handling of Jing it would be stealing supplies from Sun Quan's army during his march, and that he could not manage to hold onto the loyality of all of his men like Mi Fang and Fu Shi Ren which allowed Lu Meng to snatch them up, not this retreat plan that definitely requires foresight that nobody in his shoes would've had in the actual moment.


I were meant to say if Guan Yu did survive, then Shu would at least proceed with caution against Wu if they were going to launch a campaign on Jing, the mass death and lost of talents could be lessened. There are so many talents that lost on Shaoting, incurring major impact on Shu.

And yes, the survival of three brothers aren't really important, they're old anyway, but men like Guan Ping, Ma Liang and many others would still very likely to be alive, the campaign on Jing could proceed more carefully. The lost on Shaoting is due to Liu Bei's error and his underestimation upon his enemy.

For Yuan shao's son? well, buying time is the best they can do, nothing more. They may be good when united, but none of them are wise enough to use their men properly, Cao Cao is. If the Yuan shao's 'what if' scenario would be to say IF his sons were as wise as Guo Jia, then yes they could won against Cao Cao.

No, the SGZ or was it ZZTJ i don't remember, did mention the Wu's plan on invading Jing, and that Sun Quan purposely told his messenger to "take his time in delivering the permission in lending their supplies" to Guan Yu. The plan of invasion is already in motion, Wu just need to buy time for it to happen.
Guan Yu is the one who actually should making a backup plan, like sending men to fetch supplies on Jing or Shangyong while waiting for Sun Quan messenger, or making new strategy like heavily storm one of the castles instead of two at once, or planning his retreat route should the battle goes awry.

Btw i did mention about Guan Yu's viewing on other outside his "inner circle" as inferior sort of men, right? unfortunately for Mi Fang and Fu Shiren, Meng Da, and Lu Meng - Sun Quan to the least extent, they never part of Guan Yu's inner circle, you know what that means right?
- edit - both generals, Mi Fang and Fu Shiren was part of Tao Qian's who left their given posts by Cao Cao for an uncertain future, they spend many years standing side by side with Liu Bei and others, yet Guan Yu viewed them as an 'extra', was it unfair? if they were snatched away by Lu Meng, its not they fault.

Dong Zhou wrote:Liu Bei's complaint of stomach problems spreading suggests Liu Bei was very ill so even without stress of what happened, hard to see him living longer. Maybe Jing's fall added to Zhang Fei's stress but he had a history of brutality on his men so may have been assassinated anyway


yeah the survival of three brothers aren't really important, they're old anyway. But, are Guan Ping, Ma Liang and others who fall during the capture of Jing, the capture of Guan Yu and the lost on Shaoting aren't that important? was it that the reason Shu strength declined after those events? to me the lost talent of many generals and official is really a shame. The same way why i reason Hou Yin's survival are important for Guan Yu's later campaign.

DaoLunOfShiji wrote:What is your reasoning for thinking this? Guan Yu's death is tied in with the loss of Jingzhou. Cao Cao still emptied Hanzhong of the populace, making any northern march nearly impossible to succeed and without JIngzhou the claimant state of Liu Bei's Han only had one route of attack. Why would Liu Bei be anymore successful with this than either Zhuge Liang or Jiang Wei? Jiang Wei, by the way, had some of the more impressive victories of the era. Gu Pass alone shook Wei to their core when they were, arguably, at their strongest after all.

Liu Bei was a very experience commander having fought constantly for much of his adult life, but experience does not always net positive results nor does inexperience net negative results. Dealing with what-if's is too problematic. There are too many factors, and making claims such as "Shu would have survived longer if only x" does not take into account every factor, because we do not know every factor. I have my issues with Guan Yu, those that know me are well aware of that, but I don't see how him not dying in 219 would keep Shu afloat any longer than history showed. It's purely speculative without any evidence. We have zero proof to suggest that any of the three would've put in place some plan that would hold. Shu had an abudant pool of talent during their final years. Luo Xian, Liu Yin and Huo Yi are men that I would proudly laud as some of the bravest, most loyal men of the era. Their feats rival many of the greats. If they could not keep Shu alive, what hope would Guan Yu who lost JIngzhou, Zhang Fei who lost Xuzhou and Liu Bei who lost his Easterward Campaign have?



its not Guan Yu that i want, he can go die elsewhere i don't care, but the guys that were with him like Zhao Lei and Guan Ping. If Guan Yu survive, then both men would survive as well, and so many others like Ma Liang and many others on Shaoting as they will proceed more carefully, since they know Wu cannot be underestimated.

Abundant on final years? were Jiang Wei was blamed for using up Shu's resources in his northern campaign so that it had to spread too thin in governing their territory? So far i know Luo Xian, Huo Yi and others experienced people were standing guard at different border, they never been on the same places at a time, and leaving only inexperienced people like Zhuge Zhan and other on the capital, they can't save Shu even if they wanted to.
Last edited by Li_Shengsun on Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:51 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Everyone has flaws. It's a matter of finding the ones you can live with.
User avatar
Li_Shengsun
Initiate
 
Posts: 70
Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2018 11:35 am

Re: Guan Yu..your opinion on him

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:30 pm

Li_Shengsun wrote:its not Guan Yu that i want, he can go die elsewhere i don't care, but the guys that were with him like Zhao Lei and Guan Ping. If Guan Yu survive, then both men would survive as well, and so many others like Ma Liang and many others on Shaoting as they will proceed more carefully, since they know Wu cannot be underestimated.

Abundant on final years? really? were Jiang Wei was blamed for using up their resources in his northern campaign so that Shu had to spread too thin in governing their territory. So far i know Luo Xian was guarding the border of Wu, Huo Yi on south so that Shu only had people like Zhuge Zhan and other on the capital.
Please don't blame it on Luo Xian, Huo Yi and others as they're doing their best in covering the lack of personnel after the many campaign led by Jiang Wei.


I'm unsure how you read my post as me blaming Luo Xian, Huo Yi and Liu Yin for the fall of Shu. I explicitly stated that they were "some of the bravest, most loyal men of the era." with their feats rivaling "many of the greats". Which points to the state Liu Bei's claimant state was in. If they had those three incredible talents, as well as the likes of Zhang Yi, and yet still fell against Wei's invasion, what use would Guan Ping be? If anything I'm the person pushing back against the ridiculous, and quite frankly misinformed and unread lie that Shu somehow had no talent with the loss of the "five tigers". In fact they had talent I would say was far more impressive. Luo Xian was exactly where he needed to be in the east, even if he was put there through the conflicts in the court. Him being there saved more lives. Him being in the east may have been one of the most crucial moves of the entire era, but that's beside the point. Liu Yin resisted an army of 100,000 that swallowed Hanzhong whole all on his own, and all of his allies were lost. He never gave in, he was never defeated. He didn't surrender until after Liu Shan had. So yes, Shu had abundant talent in the final years. Jiang Wei as well proved that he was extremely capable in the field, but he was not command material. That much is obvious. He never should've had that position. His campaigns were wasteful, I completely agree.

Guan Ping for all we know was a child, no older than Xiahou Rong at the time of his death several years prior. Zhao Lei we don't have enough recorded on him to say if he'd play any difference in Shu's fate. Ma Liang is someone I love dearly and lament his death in such a failed campaign under Liu Bei, but again I don't see him impacting Shu greatly.

My point was if these incredible talents at the end of Shu's life could not save it, how could anyone else? How could Guan Ping, who we have no record of him doing anything other than dying with his father, have a greater impact than Luo Yin, Huo Yi or Luo Xian? The only way you can say he would or could is purely speculative thinking, and that's where I check out.

*editing this to steer it on topic to the thread

I've probably made it no secret in the past, but I'm not fan of Guan Yu. Aside from anecdotal evidence there isn't much recorded to say he's worth what fiction has lauded him to be. I was very harsh on him in the past, so I might as well clarify my current position. I still don't care for him. My problems with him have already been listed over and over in this thread, so I won't bother to list them. Just think of the greatest hits and you'll get 'em. :lol: However, a lack of evidence is something extraordinarily common with Shu's SGZ due to the poor historical department in Shu. I'm not suggesting that feats were made up, but simply that records weren't saved or even written down. It's telling that many of the comments relating to Guan Yu's might and bravery draw from Wei and Wu mouths, and not Shu. So this points to that the gaps in Guan Yu's SGZ that are very jarring are due to this. He most certainly could have accomplished things that simply were not written down.

Furthermore I mistakenly and stupidly used to blame the historical man for the faults with his ridiculous folklore and fictional representation, which is stupid. So apologies for that. You can't blame a man for something he literally had no hand in.
"Looking at Zhong Hui is like viewing an armory, one sees only spears and lances"
— Pei Kai
Check out this list of historical resources I have.
Check out this list of cited biographies I have written.
User avatar
DaoLunOfShiji
Scholar
 
Posts: 335
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:26 pm
Location: "A genius like Cao Zhi, as martial as Cao Cao."

PreviousNext

Return to Sanguo Yanyi Symposium Archives

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved