Guan Yu..your opinion on him

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What do you think about Guan Yu

I like him, he is been underestimated to much..
46
48%
I don't like him...he is overrated..
49
52%
 
Total votes : 95

Unread postby Sun Fin » Fri Dec 21, 2007 3:32 pm

Yes but what great advisors where there? ZL didn't take part in militry untill Liu Bei's death. Fa Zheng was still an inside officer for Liu Zhang. Pang tong had died. I feel that sending Zhang Fei to replace Guan Yu would of been more effective with Ma Liang there and Zhao Yun ans v support officer. BTW i presume Guan Yu had his support officers there (Guan Ping and Liao Hui) or did they not have specific ties to Guan Yu like Zhou Cang weren't real?
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Dec 21, 2007 5:07 pm

Liao Hua and Guan Ping were in Jing, Ping obviously would have close ties there but maybe Liu Bei felt he had left able men there like Ma Liang, Liao Hua and Wang Fu but they either died too early for us to judge or were not up the job.
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Unread postby Sun Fin » Fri Dec 21, 2007 5:09 pm

I know this is going off topic but is Guan Ping a capable officer, or is it a case of death too early to tell?
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Unread postby xiaoxiannu » Fri Dec 21, 2007 5:10 pm

elitemsh wrote:
Guan Yu was said to have treated the officials arrogantly. Any advice Ma Liang may have given, Guan Yu would not have listened to because for whatever reason he didn't respect politicians/diplomats like Ma Liang. Perhaps that is why Liu Bei did not give Guan Yu more advisors because Guan didn't respect them and Bei knew this having been with Guan for so long. I think it is true though that Guan should have been given more loyal and competent subordinates.

So while i agree that Guan Yu lacked talent under him, the little he was given he did not use well.


Liu Bei didn't give Guan Yu advisors because Guan Yu didn't respect them ?
It's a little bit harsh judgement ... :D
Its looks like Liu Bei lets Guan Yu die .... and if this is true why is Liu Bei still insist to avenge his brother dies ?
I think back then Liu Bei has only a few subordinate...Its not easy to captured Yi Zhou if Liu Bei didn't use the strength of Jing troops and officer. After Liu Bei conquered Yi and Han Zhong that is the time Liu Bei has many subordinate officer from ex-Liu Zhang. But a moment from the time Han Zhong has been taken completely and Guan Yu death is not long, maybe this is the point that Liu Bei has a little bit too late at sending more troops and officers to aid Guan Yu in Jing. But thats IMO... :P
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Dec 21, 2007 5:20 pm

Sun Fin wrote:I know this is going off topic but is Guan Ping a capable officer, or is it a case of death too early to tell?


Well he did nothing but die with no mention of any talent so signs not good

Its looks like Liu Bei lets Guan Yu die .... and if this is true why is Liu Bei still insist to avenge his brother dies ?


makes better rallying cry then "I want Jing back" :wink:
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Unread postby Elitemsh » Fri Dec 21, 2007 5:23 pm

Sun Fin wrote:Yes but what great advisors where there? ZL didn't take part in militry untill Liu Bei's death. Fa Zheng was still an inside officer for Liu Zhang. Pang tong had died. I feel that sending Zhang Fei to replace Guan Yu would of been more effective with Ma Liang there and Zhao Yun ans v support officer. BTW i presume Guan Yu had his support officers there (Guan Ping and Liao Hui) or did they not have specific ties to Guan Yu like Zhou Cang weren't real?


I doubt that Zhang Fei could have done a better job. In fact i think he would have done much worse than Guan Yu. Zhang Fei had originally been placed in charge of Xu by Liu Bei and he lost it to Lu Bu. This was at least partly due to poor governance. Fei had proven that he wasn't reliable enough to be placed in charge of such an important province. Anyhow he was needed to help take Yi and Han Zhong.

I do not know much about Guan Ping or Liao Hua. What I do know is that both were indeed in Jing with Guan Yu. Liao Hua was Guan Yu’s chief secretary but I do not know what duties that post entailed.
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Unread postby Sun Fin » Fri Dec 21, 2007 5:24 pm

Yeah maybe Dong Zhou but it doesn't sound much like the Liu Bei we all know and love :wink:. But surely if he wanted Jing so badly he'd of sent more officers to Guan Yu to help him hold it. Besides he must of realised that if he and Wu where bickering then they couldn't beat Wei. Soto methis suggests it was him being truely upset about his brothers death. as for Guan Ping thats a shame because I always liked him on DW and DT and ROTK :(
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Dec 21, 2007 5:49 pm

I'm sure Liu Bei was hurt by losing his brother but he was historically too clever to let emotions cloud his judgement like that. His failures in diplomacy and maybe not giving enough advisor's (come to think of it, it might have made a good ground to send advisor's he didn't trust like Peng Yang) but Shu needed Jing to have any chance of beating Wei, it's importance was incalculable
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Unread postby Matteo Ricci » Fri Dec 21, 2007 6:00 pm

So far, this is a very interesting discussion. Though, there are several topics that I think we need to explore further.

First, was Liu Bei really that stupid to leave Jingzhou to an incompetent Guan Yu? I doubt that Liu Bei or Zhuge Liang really that stupid. Even though Guan Yu might not be as wonderful as the novel portrayed him to be, I think we could assume that Guan Yu was a decent administrator/governor.

Of course, nepotism might played a big role here. As Jingzhou was very important, it was only proper to leave it to a loyal general. Once you leave it to your very old follower who relatively had stuck with you when you were at a very low position, then it would not be a good idea (or possible) to take it back, even though you might have someone more qualified for that position. Moreover, based on the familiarity, you might have ignored your subordinates' faults or overestimated his or her ability. Think about Cao Cao's remarks when he found out that Yu Jin was defeated and surrendered. The same thing could be said to Guan Yu. Still, I think Guan Yu was not that bad, regardless of the possibility of nepotism.

This brings into another question: then why there was no assistance from Liu Bei, e.g. more competent civil officers? Could it be possible that Guan Yu actually minimize the problems in the region? Keep in mind, at that period, communication was treacherous and it took time to relay messages. Moreover, even the inspectors would not be as thorough as we would like, considering that Guan Yu was very close to Liu Bei. As the result, there might be things that Guan Yu never reported.

I doubt that Liu Bei or Zhuge Liang knew about the raids that Guan Yu did on Sun Quan's supplies or his insulting rejection to Sun Quan's offer of marriage, etc. Even if Sun Quan sent emmissaries to Liu Bei to complain, I would hazard to guess that Liu Bei simply sent someone who would report that it was not true, etc. Moreover, I doubt if Guan Yu would tell Liu Bei that he provoked Sun Quan, considering that if we assume that the novel that correct, Zhuge Liang had warned Guan Yu not to provoke Sun Quan at all cost. Not surprisingly, Liu Bei saw Sun Quan's attacks as unprovoked and treacherous, even though Guan Yu might have invited the disaster himself.

I would say, Guan Yu might be competent enough to govern Jingzhou, however once he attacked Cao Ren, it was no longer within his capability to do three things: attacking Cao Ren, governing Jingzhou, while keeping Sun Quan at bay. Of course, Liu Bei, unaware about the tension between Guan Yu and Sun Quan, would not consider things badly there that he needed to send more capable officers. With the news of the victory against Yu Jin and Pang De arrived, even if Sun Quan decided to hit Jingzhou, the urgency became lessened.

So, the problem would be misperception, lack of communication and control, nepotism, and you name it. In any case, I think I better stop writing before this post turns into the Great Wall of China.
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Unread postby Sun Fin » Fri Dec 21, 2007 9:07 pm

What you've been saying about Guan Yu and him must having talent is what I and a few others have been saying the whole time but hopefully others will take that point now. You've raised some very intresting point's there.
What you've said about nepotism certainly rings true to me. Who is as loyal to him as Guan Yu? Zhao Yun and Zhang Fei being probally the only 2 to pick from and we have already decided for various reasons they can't :lol:.
What you say about Guan underestemating his mistakes makes sense when you consider how big headed and he arragont was. But what you said about him not being able to deal with three things makes sense too but he needed another capable leader to deal with Wu.
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