Guan Yu..your opinion on him

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What do you think about Guan Yu

I like him, he is been underestimated to much..
46
50%
I don't like him...he is overrated..
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50%
 
Total votes : 92

Unread postby xiaoxiannu » Tue Dec 18, 2007 6:55 am

Matteo Ricci wrote:Granted, he is a capable general, able to use local warlords and even brigands so much that even Cao Cao was thinking of moving the capital (though to be honest, I am unsure whether it was a historical event or another exaggeration by LGZ). However, again, his fault was his pride and it was his downfall.


I think there is your answer...

During the twenty-fourth year of JianAn (AD 219), Liu Bei became the Prince of Hanzhong and he appointed Guan Yu as Qian Jiangjun (General of the Front). In the same year, Guan Yu led his army to attack Cao Ren at Fan. Cao Cao sent Yu Jin to assist Cao Ren. It was autumn then and there was heavy downpour leading to the overflowing of River Han. As a result, the seven armies commanded by Yu Jin all drowned. Yu Jin surrendered to Guan Yu, and Guan Yu executed General Pang De. The bandits of Liang, Jia and Lu were called to action by Guan Yu and assisted in the battle, thus Guan Yu’s named spread throughout China.

Cao Cao was discussing whether to move the capital to Xudu to avoid any encounters with Guan Yu’s strong forces.

:D
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:22 pm

A capable subordinate, mighty warrior and one capable of taking advantage of things like Yan Liang and the floods. However as a commander he suffered many defeats with only the Yu Jin thing to make up for it, over promoted.
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Unread postby Matteo Ricci » Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:20 pm

xiaoxiannu wrote:I think there is your answer...

During the twenty-fourth year of JianAn (AD 219), Liu Bei became the Prince of Hanzhong and he appointed Guan Yu as Qian Jiangjun (General of the Front). In the same year, Guan Yu led his army to attack Cao Ren at Fan. Cao Cao sent Yu Jin to assist Cao Ren. It was autumn then and there was heavy downpour leading to the overflowing of River Han. As a result, the seven armies commanded by Yu Jin all drowned. Yu Jin surrendered to Guan Yu, and Guan Yu executed General Pang De. The bandits of Liang, Jia and Lu were called to action by Guan Yu and assisted in the battle, thus Guan Yu’s named spread throughout China.

Cao Cao was discussing whether to move the capital to Xudu to avoid any encounters with Guan Yu’s strong forces.

:D


Thanks. I knew I had read it somewhere, but I was not sure whether it was only in the novel or it did have historical basis.

Even so, we could derive two (or more) deductions from Cao Cao's decision to move the capital:
1. Guan Yu was so strong that even Cao Cao feared him, since Cao Cao used to employ Guan Yu, so Cao Cao did know about Guan Yu's capability.

2. Cao Cao's was not confident about his own strength, having lost part of his army after Yu Jin's debacle. He was unsure about Sun Quan's intention, as Sun Quan might have changed his mind about this alliance after this debacle (alliances are made to be broken anyway). As the result of Liu Bei holding both Shu and Jingzhou, his capital would be open from attacks from both Wu and Shu.

In this scenario, whether Guan Yu was a great general or not is not relevant, since we are dealing with Cao Cao's perception about the situation on hand and the structure of the international system itself. Of course, to Cao Cao's advantage, Guan Yu had angered Sun Quan so much that Sun Quan decided to stick with this alliance and as the result, after Sun Quan captured Jingzhou, the weakened Cao Cao only needed to face the remnants of Guan Yu's army.

It just came to my mind that the poll is biased. There are still many possible answers, such as: (1) I like him, but he is overrated, (2) I don't like him, but I still believe that he is underrated, (3) I am neutral toward Guan Yu.
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Unread postby Elitemsh » Tue Dec 18, 2007 7:03 pm

Tan_Binrui wrote:I disagree. I believe that if Huang Zhong were in Guan Yu's place, he wouldn't rush to battle without reinforcements or adequate supplies, belittle an ally, and threaten his own officers with future punishment. Guan Yu did everything wrong in his situation. I doubt any others of equal title would do the same.


Huang Zhong was always used as a vanguard general for Liu Bei, he was first on the front lines. The strategy for killing Xiahou Yuan was most likely Fa Zheng’s or Liu Bei’s idea and Huang Zhong being a vanguard general carried it out. There is no proof that Huang Zhong had the ability to effectively govern a province. It is likely that since Huang was a frontline general he would have rushed into battle quicker than Guan Yu.

Tan_Binrui wrote:betrayal that wasn't undeserved. Mi Fang and Fu Shiren had no other choice, Guan Yu made sure of that. Lu Meng, and Sun Quan both tried their hands (Sun Quan sending a marriage invitation that was insulted, Lu Meng offering support at Fan Castle which was threatened), but Guan Yu denied them the chance at friendship.


Mi Fang and Fu Shi R en definitely did have a choice. Both of these officers were inept, they did not fulfill their duty correctly and Guan Yu was right to wish to punish them when he returned. They were cowardly and incompetent generals and Guan Yu did not alienate them, they failed in their duties and they consequently deserved to be punished. If you view the situation with an open mind then you will acknowledge that Guan Yu does not deserve to be blamed for the betrayal of Mi Fang and Fu Shi Ren.

Tan_Binrui wrote:Any man who had that much familiarity with the province and its people should have been able to do what he aimed to do, even in the least. Guan Yu, though, failed horribly. Again, if it were any other general...


You have no right to say that any general could have done what Guan Yu aimed to do. This is a very ignorant statement as is not backed up by any evidence. Do you have any idea of the size of Guan Yu’s force when Liu Bei was invading Yi? Liu Bei was forced to use most of his forces to take Yi and hence Guan Yu was left with a diminished and weak army. If you had considered this fact you would have realized that Guan Yu must have increased his strength dramatically over the next few years as he became a worrying threat to both Wei and Wu. IMO you shouldn’t slight his achievement as much as you do. I do not particularly like Guan Yu but he deserves to be respected for the above accomplishment which must have been impressive as (during the time) it caused his ‘name to be spread throughout China’. Also considering that the likes of Lu Meng refered to Guan Yu as a mighty general then it is obvious that he must have been much better than at least you think.

Bottom line is you should give the man a little respect.
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Unread postby Sun Fin » Tue Dec 18, 2007 8:48 pm

Thankyou. i'm not Guan Yu's biggest fan but he had a reputation which he must of earned somewhere. Reputations maybe exaggerated but there is always a base for it. He was overated in the book no doubt but mow people always underestimate him as a result. So no he was no God of war but like Elitmesh said he did achieve stuff and he was capable even if he wasn't great so stop disin the guy and admit that he weren't amazing but his not bad either. :x
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Unread postby Tan_Binrui » Tue Dec 18, 2007 11:54 pm

elitemsh wrote:Huang Zhong was always used as a vanguard general for Liu Bei, he was first on the front lines. The strategy for killing Xiahou Yuan was most likely Fa Zheng’s or Liu Bei’s idea and Huang Zhong being a vanguard general carried it out. There is no proof that Huang Zhong had the ability to effectively govern a province. It is likely that since Huang was a frontline general he would have rushed into battle quicker than Guan Yu.


Granted. I may have been quick to assume that Huag Zhong could do better than Guan Yu as a governor. I do, however, still believe that he had the potential to lead a more successful campaign, or hold a better relation with Wu. Why? Because it wasn't proved that he couldn't. Guan Yu, on the other hand, proved that he couldn't with his years of failure. Replace my chosen general with Zhao Yun, who did prove to be, at the least, a capable governor, and proved that his self-leadership wasn't horrid, and we've got a winner.

elitemsh wrote:Mi Fang and Fu Shi Ren definitely did have a choice. Both of these officers were inept, they did not fulfill their duty correctly and Guan Yu was right to wish to punish them when he returned. They were cowardly and incompetent generals and Guan Yu did not alienate them, they failed in their duties and they consequently deserved to be punished. If you view the situation with an open mind then you will acknowledge that Guan Yu does not deserve to be blamed for the betrayal of Mi Fang and Fu Shi Ren.


Don't belittle me by acting like your view on the situation is more open minded than my own. You blame the individuals, and that is not without its merit. I blame their leader, who threatened punishment at a time where they could not hope to see redemption. Wu came in with a promise of service and safety, which they delivered on, and the two took the offer. As much as they are to blame for being individually open to betrayal, Guan Yu is to blame for even allowing betrayal to Wu to become a viable option.

elitemsh wrote:You have no right to say that any general could have done what Guan Yu aimed to do. This is a very ignorant statement as is not backed up by any evidence. Do you have any idea of the size of Guan Yu’s force when Liu Bei was invading Yi? Liu Bei was forced to use most of his forces to take Yi and hence Guan Yu was left with a diminished and weak army. If you had considered this fact you would have realized that Guan Yu must have increased his strength dramatically over the next few years as he became a worrying threat to both Wei and Wu. IMO you shouldn’t slight his achievement as much as you do. I do not particularly like Guan Yu but he deserves to be respected for the above accomplishment which must have been impressive as (during the time) it caused his ‘name to be spread throughout China’. Also considering that the likes of Lu Meng refered to Guan Yu as a mighty general then it is obvious that he must have been much better than at least you think.

Bottom line is you should give the man a little respect.


I do give him a little respect, and it is unfortunate that these points of respect aren't brought up. He showed exemplary courage in charging through Yan Liang's lines with his unit. He showed exemplary command when he took advantage of the flooding of Yu Jin's armies. He showed exemplary loyalty when he returned to Liu Bei.

He also showed shameful cowardice when he surrendered to Cao Cao without a fight. He showed shameful dishonesty when he served Cao Cao at the front lines of Guan Du, against the ally of his former leader. He showed shameful ignorance in his battle order for the Fan Castle Campaign. He showed shameful incompetence when he couldn't take a castle that was already completely flooded, outnumbered, starving, and rife with turmoil. He showed shameful diplomatic leadership when he insulted Sun Quan, and threatened Lu Meng.

He is a man of few virtues, as I see it, and many faults. Faults which are ignored because of his popularity in opera, modern mythology, and video games.

I respect the man for his virtues, but I see his duplicity and incompetence. I would argue that this shows more respect than simply ignoring, or showing unfair acceptance of, his overwhelming faults.
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Unread postby xiaoxiannu » Wed Dec 19, 2007 4:15 am

Tan_Binrui wrote:He also showed shameful cowardice when he surrendered to Cao Cao without a fight.


I don't know in SGZ since I can't find the truth intention or situation when Guan Yu surrendered to Cao Cao, so this one is probably can be argued.
According to Novel it says Guan Yu was given a responsible to guard Liu Bei family, since Liu Bei didn't know life or not, and then Zhang Liao come up with the idea of surrender. Maybe anyone can help with SGZ info about this one... :D

He showed shameful dishonesty when he served Cao Cao at the front lines of Guan Du, against the ally of his former leader


You mean that Pang De when was in Cao Cao showed shameful dishonesty too when he face his former lord Ma Chao (Ma Chao back then is Liu Bei one of five tiger general) when tried to invaded Guan Yu ?
When someone served one lord, they must do anything for his kingdom, even if that was against your friend or former ally.
It is true that Yuan Shao back then is Liu Bei ally,but Guan Yu didn't know Liu Bei death or not, so I think he can't be blamed for this.
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Unread postby Lonely_dragon » Wed Dec 19, 2007 5:40 am

Tan_Binrui Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2007 4:54 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Don't belittle me by acting like your view on the situation is more open minded than my own. You blame the individuals, and that is not without its merit. I blame their leader, who threatened punishment at a time where they could not hope to see redemption. Wu came in with a promise of service and safety, which they delivered on, and the two took the offer. As much as they are to blame for being individually open to betrayal, Guan Yu is to blame for even allowing betrayal to Wu to become a viable option.


Why the outburst? Both of your summarize were correct... Guan threaten to punish Mi Fang and Fu Shi Ren because they disobeyed orders and failed to brought up supplies needed for campaign... If both men realized that they were wrong they would have made an effort to redeem their fault... but they didn't, they feared their punishment and chooses to defect to Wu... This is not something a loyal person should do... Mi Fang had followed Liu Bei since Xia Pi so it is most disloyal for him to do that... From Guan's positions of course he is too stern on this and gave them a viable option to defect... it is something a commander should do... Reward when reward is due and punish when it is due... If I were Guan I will have them executed...

Remember how Zhuge Liang punished Li Yan for the similar mistakes during his norhtern campaign against Wei? at the time Li Yan also failed to collect the supplies Zhuge's requested and put up an excuse that Wu is attacking... Zhuge hurried to return from the north... and this caused a massive drawback for the entire campaign... so Zhuge Executed Li Yan...
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Dec 19, 2007 9:23 am

elitemsh, knock off the close minded and ignorant comments please, it will only get the debate heated.

You mean that Pang De when was in Cao Cao showed shameful dishonesty too when he face his former lord Ma Chao (Ma Chao back then is Liu Bei one of five tiger general) when tried to invaded Guan Yu ?


I think the difference is Pang De surrendered completely and utterly, by the sounds of it he wasn't too fond of Ma Chao whereas Guan Yu still professed loyalty to Liu Bei and went back to him

Maybe anyone can help with SGZ info about this one...


It's at kongming.net but I'll quote it for you
In the fifth year of Jian’an 建安, Duke Cao campaigned in the east and the Former Lord fled to Yuan Shao 袁紹. The Duke captured Yu and brought him back.
Hardly a surrender

I think calling Mi Fang incompetent is a little harsh, he was a minor officer who had proved loyal in the past. Yet Guan Yu managed to drive him to Wu's arms, yes sure Mi Fang and co deserved to be punished though death is way too harsh Lonely dragon for an error but you punish them there and then, you don't hold it over their heads
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Unread postby xiaoxiannu » Wed Dec 19, 2007 10:50 am

Dong Zhou wrote:In the fifth year of Jian’an 建安, Duke Cao campaigned in the east and the Former Lord fled to Yuan Shao 袁紹. The Duke captured Yu and brought him back.


It is not explained how Cao Cao captured Guan Yu...by war or Guan Yu surrendered by himself ? or surround him and sent Zhang Liao to negotiate (novel) :?

so Zhuge Executed Li Yan...


I think this maybe out of topic... :D But is this true ???
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