Guan Yu..your opinion on him

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What do you think about Guan Yu

I like him, he is been underestimated to much..
46
50%
I don't like him...he is overrated..
46
50%
 
Total votes : 92

Unread postby Elitemsh » Wed Dec 19, 2007 1:17 pm

Tan_Binrui wrote:Granted. I may have been quick to assume that Huag Zhong could do better than Guan Yu as a governor. I do, however, still believe that he had the potential to lead a more successful campaign, or hold a better relation with Wu. Why? Because it wasn't proved that he couldn't.


Fair enough. It was indeed never proved that Huang Zhong didn’t have the ability to govern a province so it is just a matter of opinion whether he would have done a good job or not. Our opinions here are both equally valid.

Tan_Binrui wrote:Replace my chosen general with Zhao Yun, who did prove to be, at the least, a capable governor, and proved that his self-leadership wasn't horrid, and we've got a winner.


This is one thing we agree on completely. I have a great amount of respect for the historical Zhao Yun and i rate him very highly. I think it is obvious from his SGZ bio that Zhao Yun had excellent judgment and he had a good attitude and hence he may have done a better job running Jing than Guan Yu did. Although it is arguable whether Zhao Yun could have built up the strength of his army to extent that Guan Yu did. Still I do believe that Zhao Yun would have done a better job than Guan Yu if given the chance.

Tan_Binrui wrote:Don't belittle me by acting like your view on the situation is more open minded than my own. You blame the individuals, and that is not without its merit. I blame their leader, who threatened punishment at a time where they could not hope to see redemption. Wu came in with a promise of service and safety, which they delivered on, and the two took the offer. As much as they are to blame for being individually open to betrayal, Guan Yu is to blame for even allowing betrayal to Wu to become a viable option.


Sorry, I didn’t mean to offend you. I just feel that your comments towards Guan Yu are a bit too insulting and that you are belittling him.

It is said that a good general will reward a soldier for a deed well done and punish for incompetence or failure. Guan Yu was merely upholding military law, was he not? Compare the attitude of Mi Fang to Zhao Yun. When Yun lost to Cao Zhen he managed to limit the loss of supplies and men greatly and retreat orderly. As a result Kongming wanted to reward Yun and his men with the supplies that he saved but Yun refused the reward because he felt that he didn’t deserve it since the battle had ended in a defeat. Lets not forget that Yun was vastly outnumbered by Cao Zhen was only meant to act as a decoy and he succeeded in this and yet even though he had done well (given the circumstances) he still refused to be rewarded. This is the attitude of a loyal and righteous subordinate. If Zhao Yun had been in Mi Fang’s position and he had failed to perform his duty then he would have accepted punishment from Guan Yu (note that I only mention Zhao Yun because I know the most about him, there were many other loyal subordinates).
I think that the only mistake Guan Yu made regarding the two traitors was that he warned them that he would punish them and that was folly.

Tan_Binrui wrote:He also showed shameful cowardice when he surrendered to Cao Cao without a fight. He showed shameful dishonesty when he served Cao Cao at the front lines of Guan Du, against the ally of his former leader. He showed shameful ignorance in his battle order for the Fan Castle Campaign. He showed shameful incompetence when he couldn't take a castle that was already completely flooded, outnumbered, starving, and rife with turmoil. He showed shameful diplomatic leadership when he insulted Sun Quan, and threatened Lu Meng.


I do believe that he was wrong to surrender to Cao Cao as he didn’t know that Liu Bei was alive. I do not think this was cowardice though but rather pride. I think that Guan Yu wanted to make more of a name for himself before perishing.

Also, the only reason Liu Bei was with Yuan Shao was because he had nowhere else to go. Therefore was it really that dishonest for Guan to fight against Shao?

It is slightly unfair to say that Guan Yu was incompetent because he couldn’t take Fan Castle after the flooding etc. More credit should be given to the spirited defense put up by Cao Ren. I would rather complement Cao Ren here than criticize Guan Yu but to each his own.

I think that the way that Guan Yu insulted Sun Quan is similar to way that you are insulting him. I am not offending you here I just feel a need to point this out. I agree though that Guan Yu’s diplomatic ability was very poor and had he treated Sun Quan with more humility and respect then Quan would have been far less reluctant to attack. Also when did Guan Yu threaten Lu Meng?

Tan_Binrui wrote:I respect the man for his virtues, but I see his duplicity and incompetence. I would argue that this shows more respect than simply ignoring, or showing unfair acceptance of, his overwhelming faults.


I agree that Guan Yu’s faults should be acknowledged and not ignored. Did he really have overwhelming faults? I guess we must agree to disagree here.

Dong Zhou wrote:elitemsh, knock off the close minded and ignorant comments please, it will only get the debate heated.


I apologise. You are right and I will try to be more diplomatic.

Dong Zhou wrote:I think calling Mi Fang incompetent is a little harsh, he was a minor officer who had proved loyal in the past. Yet Guan Yu managed to drive him to Wu's arms, yes sure Mi Fang and co deserved to be punished though death is way too harsh Lonely dragon for an error but you punish them there and then, you don't hold it over their heads


It doesn’t matter whether Mi Fang was loyal in the past, he was not in this situation and that is what is relevant. Was Guan Yu going to kill Mi Fang and Fu Shi Ren? If so then maybe Guan went too far. Then again, Mi Fang’s error may have been a major error given the situation and hence perhaps death was a suitable punishment though it was foolish of Guan Yu to warn them of this because it would hardly inspire their loyalty. IMO, Guan Yu was merely obeying military law and Mi Fang and Fu Shi Ren didn’t.
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:08 pm

He possibly wouldn't kill Mi Fang for anything less then treason given Mi Fang's status as brother-in-law to the emperor. However when he doesn't deal with the matter, a fire in the camp I think immediately, he gives no reason for generals to stay loyal. Had he dealt with it there and then, I think Mi Fang and so on would have fought on. Now correct me if I'm wrong but where does it say in military law that one should wait till after the campaign to deal with the matter?
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Unread postby xiaoxiannu » Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:17 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:Now correct me if I'm wrong but where does it say in military law that one should wait till after the campaign to deal with the matter?


You maybe right Dongy, but many people back then is believe that given punishment or executed own officer before the war begin is not good for the morale of the troops or the luck of the campaigns itself. I have read this at the novel many times, If I'm not mistaken Yuan Shao did this too to Tian Feng or Ju Shou... :) and IMO maybe Guan Yu was thinking about the same too.
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Unread postby Sun Fin » Wed Dec 19, 2007 6:38 pm

Yes but in all these cases keeping them alive have worsened morale or wrecked there chance of winning the war :lol: . I fell that he should of punished them there and then, not execuation, dust degrading and using Mi Fang and Fu Shu Ran against Wei so they know they:
a) still have there Lords trust
b) Guan Yu's got his eye on them
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Unread postby Elitemsh » Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:35 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:He possibly wouldn't kill Mi Fang for anything less then treason given Mi Fang's status as brother-in-law to the emperor. However when he doesn't deal with the matter, a fire in the camp I think immediately, he gives no reason for generals to stay loyal. Had he dealt with it there and then, I think Mi Fang and so on would have fought on. Now correct me if I'm wrong but where does it say in military law that one should wait till after the campaign to deal with the matter?


What are you on about with the fire in the camp? I read that Mi Fang and Shi Ren's failure was in not delivering supplies on time when Guan Yu went off with his army. Guan Yu then apparently said that he would deal with Fang and Ren when he returned. So there was no way that Guan Yu could punish them there and then because Guan Yu wasn't with them as he was in the middle of a battle or march.

However, it was said that Guan Yu had treated the two casually previously and hence this may have influenced their failure to deliver the supplies. This still doesn't justify their betrayal and incompetence. Mi Fang and Shi Ren should have held themselves accountable for their failure and acknowledge that they deserved to be punished by Guan Yu.
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Unread postby Cao Shang » Wed Dec 19, 2007 8:51 pm

xiaoxiannu wrote:
Dong Zhou wrote:Now correct me if I'm wrong but where does it say in military law that one should wait till after the campaign to deal with the matter?


You maybe right Dongy, but many people back then is believe that given punishment or executed own officer before the war begin is not good for the morale of the troops or the luck of the campaigns itself. I have read this at the novel many times, If I'm not mistaken Yuan Shao did this too to Tian Feng or Ju Shou... :) and IMO maybe Guan Yu was thinking about the same too.


Yuan Shao put them into prison... so he made sure they won't be able to hinder him, if they would have wanted to.

Guan Yu didn't do anything to prevent them from acting against him.
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Dec 20, 2007 7:28 am

elitemsh wrote:What are you on about with the fire in the camp? I read that Mi Fang and Shi Ren's failure was in not delivering supplies on time when Guan Yu went off with his army. Guan Yu then apparently said that he would deal with Fang and Ren when he returned. So there was no way that Guan Yu could punish them there and then because Guan Yu wasn't with them as he was in the middle of a battle or march.

However, it was said that Guan Yu had treated the two casually previously and hence this may have influenced their failure to deliver the supplies. This still doesn't justify their betrayal and incompetence. Mi Fang and Shi Ren should have held themselves accountable for their failure and acknowledge that they deserved to be punished by Guan Yu.


You will catch more honey with niceness rather then going what are you on about, I must have been thinking of the novel or another incident in regard the fire. If Guan Yu is nearby, deal with them immediately himself if close enough, if not then send someone who can investigate or deliver the punishment to demote them, whip them or whatever. Don't vow they are going to be in huge trouble when he returns without telling them what said punishment is
Last edited by Dong Zhou on Thu Dec 20, 2007 9:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby Ranmaru Mori » Thu Dec 20, 2007 7:58 am

I like Guan Yu he's interesting IMO though he was arrogant and I really dislike arrogant people.
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Unread postby Elitemsh » Thu Dec 20, 2007 11:16 am

Dong Zhou wrote:You will catch more honey with niceness rather then going what are you on about, I must have been thinking of the novel or another incident in regard the fire. If Guan Yu is nearby, deal with them immediately himself if close enough, if not then send someone who can investigate or deliver the punishment to demote them, whip them or whatever. Don't vow they are going to be in huge trouble when he returns without telling them what said punishment is


Naturally Guan Yu was unlikely to be close by. As for sending someone else to punish them, well Guan Yu may have felt that since he was their superior it was thus his responsibilty to personally carry out or oversee the punishment.

I agree that he shouldn't have said that he would deal with them later. This was very foolish, particularly since as you say he didn't say what the punishment would be and hence making the two even more fearful. If Guan Yu had at least mentioned what the punishment would be, especially if it was a light punishment, then the two would have been more at ease and perhaps less likely to betray.
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Unread postby Shadowlink » Thu Dec 20, 2007 1:13 pm

Ranmaru Mori wrote:I like Guan Yu he's interesting IMO though he was arrogant and I really dislike arrogant people.
Yeah it annoys me in real lifef to face arrogant people -.-.
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