Guan Yu..your opinion on him

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What do you think about Guan Yu

I like him, he is been underestimated to much..
45
50%
I don't like him...he is overrated..
45
50%
 
Total votes : 90

Re: Guan Yu..your opinion on him

Unread postby simple » Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:03 pm

Aaron.K wrote:
simple wrote:i think you need to improve your chinese.
cos nowhere did in sgz stated he was alone.
below is in sgz.
or maybe i should translate for you?
曹操亲自率军救援,并命张辽与关羽为前锋。
关羽望见颜良的麾盖,策马冲锋,斩杀颜良于万军之中,枭首而归,
袁军将领无人能挡,白马之围被解.


below is 易中天品三国09 - 一决雌雄
this ep talk about guan du.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nj4e8xPnID4


Thank you for your ad hominem, I will speak with you once you refrain from doing so.


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Re: Guan Yu..your opinion on him

Unread postby James » Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:11 pm

Please don't take the discussion in a direction where it becomes personal.
There's no need for that when discussing history.

And on an unrelated note, I think there are enough inconsistencies and omissions in the histories that I would be pretty nervous about the whole 'we have eliminated all these possibilities so it must be this' line of thinking based on a strict, literal reading of the text. In the case of Guan Yu, however it happened, it seems remarkable to me. Or something extremely unusual took place and was massaged in some way in being recorded.
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Re: Guan Yu..your opinion on him

Unread postby Aaron.K » Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:54 pm

James wrote:Please don't take the discussion in a direction where it becomes personal.
There's no need for that when discussing history.

And on an unrelated note, I think there are enough inconsistencies and omissions in the histories that I would be pretty nervous about the whole 'we have eliminated all these possibilities so it must be this' line of thinking based on a strict, literal reading of the text. In the case of Guan Yu, however it happened, it seems remarkable to me. Or something extremely unusual took place and was massaged in some way in being recorded.


While it is true that there are inconsistencies and omissions within the histories (an exceptional example being Dian Wei's halberd, which was neither a crescent Ji because it didn't exist at the time, and was a ceremonial rather than battlefield weapon when it did exist, nor would it have weighed 100 pounds, simply on the understanding of weapons that were found, and using weapons yourself, that such a weight is simply not possible and the description is a literary device). But with the inconsistencies and omissions, one thing which is interesting to take note is that troops are frequently mentioned when they were in an action, and rather than attribute something to an individual it is instead given to the troops as a collective, while this is not the case with Guan Yu.

Though as you say, regardless of however it happened (although I am still of the opinion he killed Yan Liang on his own), it is still something remarkable, because it's one of the few instances within the San Guo Zhi where an officer who has been named, and also mentioned in other biographies, is personally slain by another officer, rather than say Zhang Liao's (still remarkable feat) of "slaying two officers" who are not named, at Xiaoyao Ford.
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Re: Guan Yu..your opinion on him

Unread postby simple » Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:42 pm

James wrote:Please don't take the discussion in a direction where it becomes personal.
There's no need for that when discussing history.

And on an unrelated note, I think there are enough inconsistencies and omissions in the histories that I would be pretty nervous about the whole 'we have eliminated all these possibilities so it must be this' line of thinking based on a strict, literal reading of the text. In the case of Guan Yu, however it happened, it seems remarkable to me. Or something extremely unusual took place and was massaged in some way in being recorded.


i agree with the personal thing.
but telling someone their language need improvement don't sound personal to me.
or else all the teachers can quit their job, since they always tell their people to improve this and that.

back to the topic.
sometimes when novel became too popular, people start to think they are real history.
so we all have to be clear about the differences between real and fiction.
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Re: Guan Yu..your opinion on him

Unread postby Sun Fin » Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:45 pm

The thing is simple what Aaron is arguing doesn't only come from the novel, it comes from our primary historical source of the period.
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Re: Guan Yu..your opinion on him

Unread postby simple » Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:20 pm

Sun Fin wrote:The thing is simple what Aaron is arguing doesn't only come from the novel, it comes from our primary historical source of the period.


below is from cao cao's bio,
it clearly stated it was a surprised attack.
and yan liang troops were in complete disarray.
also stated that guan yu wasn't alone when killed yan liang.
cao cao had used a strategy call 声东击西, which is to employ a surprise attack on the enemy.
below also stated how wen chou was killed.
the way they will killed were similar.

建安五年二月,袁軍顏良等人圍攻白馬,拉開了大戰的序幕。四月,曹操親自率兵北上解白馬之圍,他采納謀士荀攸之計,先進軍延津(今河南延津北,在白馬以西),做出要渡河襲擊袁軍的態勢,吸引袁軍分兵西向,然後突然轉向迅速趕往白馬。曹操軍突然殺到,袁軍措手不及,關羽「策馬刺良於萬眾之中,斬其首還,紹諸將莫能當者」,袁軍大敗,白馬之圍遂解。曹操救出白馬軍民,沿黃河西撤。袁紹聞知,立即渡河追趕曹操。曹操見追兵漸近,命軍士解鞍放馬,並置輜重於道。袁軍追兵大至,爭搶輜重,陣形混亂。曹操率領僅有的騎兵突然殺出,大破追兵,陣斬袁紹另一大將文醜。顏良、文醜為袁軍名將,二將分別被殺,袁軍大震。曹操初戰得勝,主動撤軍,繼續扼守官渡。

as for this battle, the novel and history are totally different.
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Re: Guan Yu..your opinion on him

Unread postby Elitemsh » Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:16 pm

The full account of this whole episode is in the ZZTJ. This includes that which is mentioned in Cao Cao's and Guan Yu's SGZ.

Yuan Shao sent his officer Yan Liang to attack Liu Yan, Grand Administrator
of Dong commandery, at Boma.12 Ju Shou said, "Yan Liang is careless and
impatient He is brave, but he can-not manage alone." Yuan Shao would not
agree.
I In the summer, in the fourth month Cao Cao went north to help Liu Yan.
Xun You said, "Our soldiers are too few to match the enemy. In order to win,
you must divide our opponents' strength. When you come to the Yan
Crossing, pretend to send men across the river against his rear. Yuan Shao
will certainly turn west to deal with them. If you then send light troops to
Boma and surprise the enemy there, Yan Liang can be taken." Cao Cao
followed this plan.
As soon as Yuan Shao heard that enemy troops had crossed the Yellow
River he immediately detached men west to intercept them. Then Cao Cao
led his army on a forced march against Boma. They were still more than ten
Ii away when Yan Liang, very startled, came out to fight.
Cao Cao sent Zhang Liao and Guan Yu to go ahead and begin the attack.
Guan Yu saw Yan Liang's standard in the distance. Whipping his horse, he
broke through to Yan Liang among the ten thousand men of his army, took
off his head and came back. No-one could withstand him. So the siege of
Boma was broken, and the people were shifted west up the Yellow River.


I would have to agree that Yan Liang's army was taken by surprise due to Cao Cao's strategy. This account backs up that Guan Yu and Zhang Liao were sent together but that doesn't 100% mean that they arrived at the same time (although i find it hard to believe that Zhang Liao wasn't relatively near to Guan Yu- they both seemed to be main officers commanding the vanguard). Truth be told I don't think for a second that Guan Yu was alone when he engaged Yan Liang's army. What makes the most amount of sense is that Guan, Zhang and others attacked Yan Liang's army (which was somewhat confused) and at some point during the battle Guan Yu personally observes Yan Liang's banner and then charges in after him, cutting down a considerable number that that tried to stop him. Was this individual charge done alone? Possibly but I'm not going to assume that simply because no troops are stated. In my view Guan Yu initiated this charge himself (maybe rallying those around him- or assuming that his aides would follow his example) but he likely had his retainers around him. For certain though, a fair assumption is that he didn't have many people with him when he began this charge and he was obviously the spearhead.
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Re: Guan Yu..your opinion on him

Unread postby Jordan » Wed Feb 27, 2013 9:12 pm

The SGZ is a better source in some ways than the ZZTJ because A.) It's a primary source B.) The ZZTJ has a lot of embellishments by Sima Guang. Sima Guang's source has the benefit of drawing from other sources related to the time period but there are sometimes problems with it that you can associate with "telephone syndrome." As I understand it, many parts of the ZZTJ are copy/paste compilations but other parts have phrases that are tweaked in some manner by Sima Guang, so that the ZZTJ's account of the time period is minorly altered compared to the original sources that Sima Guang was using. This is what I've gathered from reading Achilles Fang's translations.

With regard to whether Guan Yu was alone or not, I personally don't really care. It was still quite a feat regardless. I won't dare to assume much else because I am fully cognizant of the fact that I don't know Chinese and can't read the original record.
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Re: Guan Yu..your opinion on him

Unread postby Aaron.K » Thu Feb 28, 2013 4:33 am

Indeed it was quite a feat. My basis on believing he was alone however, is in context with other SGZ biographies whenever troops are mentioned. Chinese sources in general, are fairly explicit when writing about the actions of troops in relation to being lead by generals such as Zhang Fei at the Battle of Baxi:

"Zhang Fei led his ten thousand or so elite troops and ambushed Zhang He’s men from another direction. The mountain road was narrow and Zhang He’s army was unable to assist each other at both ends, thus Zhang Fei scored a victory against him."

Or Gan Ning's bio:

"And so Ning selected a hundred-odd braves and went straight toward Lord Cao’s camp. He had them pull down the barricades. Leaping over the barriers, they entered the camp, and cut off scores of heads."

Or Ding Feng at Dongxing:

"Then he ordered his troops to take off their heavy armor and helmet, armed only with a short sword. The enemy was in the middle of a gathering and not fully on guard, so Ding Feng ordered his troops to attack and completely destroyed the frontal garrison of the enemy."

Whenever troops are lead in an action, the bios are quite consistent in mentioning the troops. And so when Guan Yu is mentioned singularly, and not as leading troops, based on the consistency with other biographies, it only makes sense to me to view his action as one that he did alone, by himself (though that's not to say that troops were not with him in the attack. Simply that when he charged forward and killed Yan Liang, he was not leading anyone, and he went on his own initiative).
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Re: Guan Yu..your opinion on him

Unread postby simple » Thu Feb 28, 2013 2:46 pm

Elitemsh wrote:The full account of this whole episode is in the ZZTJ. This includes that which is mentioned in Cao Cao's and Guan Yu's SGZ.

Yuan Shao sent his officer Yan Liang to attack Liu Yan, Grand Administrator
of Dong commandery, at Boma.12 Ju Shou said, "Yan Liang is careless and
impatient He is brave, but he can-not manage alone." Yuan Shao would not
agree.
I In the summer, in the fourth month Cao Cao went north to help Liu Yan.
Xun You said, "Our soldiers are too few to match the enemy. In order to win,
you must divide our opponents' strength. When you come to the Yan
Crossing, pretend to send men across the river against his rear. Yuan Shao
will certainly turn west to deal with them. If you then send light troops to
Boma and surprise the enemy there, Yan Liang can be taken." Cao Cao
followed this plan.
As soon as Yuan Shao heard that enemy troops had crossed the Yellow
River he immediately detached men west to intercept them. Then Cao Cao
led his army on a forced march against Boma. They were still more than ten
Ii away when Yan Liang, very startled, came out to fight.
Cao Cao sent Zhang Liao and Guan Yu to go ahead and begin the attack.
Guan Yu saw Yan Liang's standard in the distance. Whipping his horse, he
broke through to Yan Liang among the ten thousand men of his army, took
off his head and came back. No-one could withstand him. So the siege of
Boma was broken, and the people were shifted west up the Yellow River.


I would have to agree that Yan Liang's army was taken by surprise due to Cao Cao's strategy. This account backs up that Guan Yu and Zhang Liao were sent together but that doesn't 100% mean that they arrived at the same time (although i find it hard to believe that Zhang Liao wasn't relatively near to Guan Yu- they both seemed to be main officers commanding the vanguard). Truth be told I don't think for a second that Guan Yu was alone when he engaged Yan Liang's army. What makes the most amount of sense is that Guan, Zhang and others attacked Yan Liang's army (which was somewhat confused) and at some point during the battle Guan Yu personally observes Yan Liang's banner and then charges in after him, cutting down a considerable number that that tried to stop him. Was this individual charge done alone? Possibly but I'm not going to assume that simply because no troops are stated. In my view Guan Yu initiated this charge himself (maybe rallying those around him- or assuming that his aides would follow his example) but he likely had his retainers around him. For certain though, a fair assumption is that he didn't have many people with him when he began this charge and he was obviously the spearhead.


good analysis.
if read enough, usually if alone, u will see words like 自,各自 or 独自.
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