Guan Yu..your opinion on him

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What do you think about Guan Yu

I like him, he is been underestimated to much..
45
50%
I don't like him...he is overrated..
45
50%
 
Total votes : 90

Guan Yu..your opinion on him

Unread postby xiaoxiannu » Mon Dec 17, 2007 3:44 pm

Since many people in this forum seems like underestimated this officer, I like to make a new topic about this man.
What your opinion about this general, feel free to write what in your mind about this one.
I will put my opinion later, right now I'm interesting to know your opinion first. :D
And remember :
No offense to other people opinion.. :lol:
Enjoy...!!!
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Unread postby Shi Tong » Mon Dec 17, 2007 3:55 pm

Well, this is my opinion of Guan Yu.

He wasn't as Godlike as LGZ made him out to be, in SGZ, we can see that he actually militarily achieved little, but he was a good warrior who managed to flood out the armies at Fan castle, but still didn't manage to hold onto that victory.

He was also a trusted friend of Liu Bei, and despite his capture by Cao Cao vowed and kept to his vow to go back to serve Liu Bei when he reappeared after they were split up.

Many people here just say that, because Guan Yu wasn't actually a God, they were betrayed by LGZ and therefore they think that Guan Yu was useless, arrogant, idiotic and lost Jing Zhou for Shu.

However, I feel that if another Shu officer of similar type were to be sent into the same situation as Guan Yu, they may have fallen into the same traps.

What I mean by this is that Guan Yu was left out to dry in Jing Zhou, left without any decent back up or help, no advisers to speak of and no generals to help him in his military decisions.

Not only that but he suffered betrayal on all fronts, his own men in Shu (Mi Fang and Fu Shi Ren (is that right? My memory is terrible)), and by those plotting against him in Wu (Lu Meng, Lu Xun and Sun Quan).

IMO, it was inevitable that someone who was, after all, just a general, and no great thinker, was going to be beaten by such odds, and without any help from any great thinkers in Shu, Guan Yu was left to cope with an impossible situation.

He didn't see it himself, but then, why wasn't there anybody there to help him?!
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Unread postby the glorious sun jian » Mon Dec 17, 2007 6:09 pm

My hate to him is because the people over rate him very much and dont give the chance even to tell that most of his deeds are fictional ........

But generally he was not that bad really if he was then he wont be feared by Cao Cao and Lu Meng .
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Unread postby Elitemsh » Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:36 pm

I agree with Shi Tong in regards to the fact that Guan Yu was not given enough support in Jing by Liu Bei. After all there were many loyal and capable generals that Liu Bei didn't use that much and Guan Yu could have made good use of. I personally wish that Liu Bei had given Guan Yu a dependable subordinate like Zhao Yun. It is not as if Bei used Zhao Yun much in the Han Zhong campaign. Yun proved that he was capable and loyal, he was exactly what Guan Yu needed.

I respect Guan Yu for his performance in Jing. Namely the way that he strengthened the diminished forces left to him by Liu Bei and managed to build a force strong enough to threaten both Wei and Wu. For this action the man deserves some respect.

However, having said that i do not like Guan Yu. He had a major flaw which great generals apparently never obtained. In Zhuge Liang's Way of the General he argues that a general should never be arrogant and belittle others, Guan Yu did this and hence met his premature downfall. Therefore i do not think that Guan Yu could be called a great general.

Bottom line, I respect Guan Yu but I do not like him. I would refer to him as a capable general. Both Guan Yu and Zhang Fei were good generals but because of their major flaws neither of them can be called great.
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Unread postby the glorious sun jian » Mon Dec 17, 2007 8:16 pm

elitemsh wrote:I agree with Shi Tong in regards to the fact that Guan Yu was not given enough support in Jing by Liu Bei. After all there were many loyal and capable generals that Liu Bei didn't use that much and Guan Yu could have made good use of. I personally wish that Liu Bei had given Guan Yu a dependable subordinate like Zhao Yun. It is not as if Bei used Zhao Yun much in the Han Zhong campaign. Yun proved that he was capable and loyal, he was exactly what Guan Yu needed.

I respect Guan Yu for his performance in Jing. Namely the way that he strengthened the diminished forces left to him by Liu Bei and managed to build a force strong enough to threaten both Wei and Wu. For this action the man deserves some respect.

However, having said that i do not like Guan Yu. He had a major flaw which great generals apparently never obtained. In Zhuge Liang's Way of the General he argues that a general should never be arrogant and belittle others, Guan Yu did this and hence met his premature downfall. Therefore i do not think that Guan Yu could be called a great general.

Bottom line, I respect Guan Yu but I do not like him. I would refer to him as a capable general. Both Guan Yu and Zhang Fei were good generals but because of their major flaws neither of them can be called great.


Actully I think that Zhang Fei was great if not the greatest in Shu kingdom .

I agree with you , Guan Yu needed someone to help him in Jing but noy Zhao Yun who I think won’t see through Lu Meng’s plan .....
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Unread postby Tan_Binrui » Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:02 pm

Shi Tong wrote:Many people here just say that, because Guan Yu wasn't actually a God, they were betrayed by LGZ and therefore they think that Guan Yu was useless, arrogant, idiotic and lost Jing Zhou for Shu.


But he was arrogant and idiotic. Any other general who did what Guan Yu did would be seen as a fool and waste of command if it weren't Guan Yu in that position. Instead, we have the overrated God and true fool put together in a middle ground that lends him the ability of a competent general. His competence is questionable, but I read how only two or three of his many tens of opportunities led to failure, and I do not see a competent general.

Shi Tong wrote:However, I feel that if another Shu officer of similar type were to be sent into the same situation as Guan Yu, they may have fallen into the same traps.


I disagree. I believe that if Huang Zhong were in Guan Yu's place, he wouldn't rush to battle without reinforcements or adequate supplies, belittle an ally, and threaten his own officers with future punishment. Guan Yu did everything wrong in his situation. I doubt any others of equal title would do the same.

Shi Tong wrote:What I mean by this is that Guan Yu was left out to dry in Jing Zhou, left without any decent back up or help, no advisers to speak of and no generals to help him in his military decisions.


This was, of course, after the first invasion of Jingzhou netted so many defectors. Two of three cities surrendered without a fight, and the last city fell when the officer's faith in Shu wavered because of a ploy.

After this, blaming Guan Yu's lack of foresight and knowledge of what his means were on other people is folly. If Guan Yu was left with so little to work with, he shouldn't have aimed to high. He was the proverbial Icarus, flying too high and crashing to the sea in a ball of self-inflicted fire.

Shi Tong wrote:Not only that but he suffered betrayal on all fronts, his own men in Shu (Mi Fang and Fu Shi Ren (is that right? My memory is terrible)), and by those plotting against him in Wu (Lu Meng, Lu Xun and Sun Quan).[/qote]

betrayal that wasn't undeserved. Mi Fang and Fu Shiren had no other choice, Guan Yu made sure of that. Lu Meng, and Sun Quan both tried their hands (Sun Quan sending a marriage invitation that was insulted, Lu Meng offering support at Fan Castle which was threatened), but Guan Yu denied them the chance at friendship. Granted, it can be argued that betrayal was their aim from the start, but that is purely argumentative, as the only evidence we have a traitorous thoughts begin when Sima Yi contacts Sun Quan... after Fan Castle is in trouble.

Guan Yu insulted and belittled himself into a corner, and he paid for it. Any other general who did what he did would be insulted and forgotten as a fool in history. Yet, because it is Guan Yu...

Shi Tong wrote:IMO, it was inevitable that someone who was, after all, just a general, and no great thinker, was going to be beaten by such odds, and without any help from any great thinkers in Shu, Guan Yu was left to cope with an impossible situation.

He didn't see it himself, but then, why wasn't there anybody there to help him?!


Argumentative and self-defeating. What was in Guan Yu's hands was Jingzhou and how he governed it and used its military. What wasn't in his hands was who he had with him. He was placed in a position above his worth, and paid for it with his life (also suffering military defeat three times). However, his position was not placed in haste, and Guan Yu was assigned to Jingzhou for many, many years. Any man who had that much familiarity with the province and its people should have been able to do what he aimed to do, even in the least. Guan Yu, though, failed horribly. Again, if it were any other general...

EDIT: I think it's obvious what my opinion of him was.
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Unread postby Sun Gongli » Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:48 pm

I certainly think Guan Yu was a capable subordinate who could be entrusted to carry out orders to the fullest. Place him in a position of supreme command, like he had over Jing, however, and with no guidance and destruction is the only outcome.

With others deified posthumously, historical records have shown us at least some glimpse as to what great things a man or woman did during his or her lifetime that warranted deification. Most of Guan Yu's "accomplishments," however, are either recorded hundreds of years after his death or fictional in the first place. I don't think the exaggeration should detract from his historical achievements, but it helps to actually know what those achievements are and that they truly do pale in comparison to many of his lesser known compatriots.
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Unread postby Lonely_dragon » Tue Dec 18, 2007 12:58 am

I like Guan Yu... For he is a great general... Loyal and honourable... I don't know if he is underestimated or not... I say that he is rated very highly by Chinese people... though historically he was very different than the novel... I still can't find in my heart to hate him...

He is a great general... able to keep the Wu and Wei army at bay when he is in command of Jing without a capable strategists...

A great warrior he slew Yan Liang and many others all capable warriors...

So in short I like him for the man he is... and his abilities... if he had no good traits and deeds then why the China people considers Guan Yu as a God of War...
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Unread postby ZhouTai50 » Tue Dec 18, 2007 1:29 am

I find him to be either vastly overrated. His only real achievement, the slaying of Yan Liang at Baima, wasn't exactly the most impressive in the era, though I do give him credit for noticing that Yan Liang's unit was near and being able to successfully raid them.

What I find to be the worst about him is the whole Jing debaucle. After the invasion into Southern Jing in 214, you would think he would tighten the guard, or at least not go as far as to insult Sun Quan when he suggested a politcal marriage. I don't give him much credit for the Fan Castle battle, either, as had Yu Jin and Pang De's armies not been devestated by thr floods, I have no doubt they would have beaten him back sooner than he was.

I also feel he was at fault for alienating his officers and advisors that were with him, belittling them and refusing to accept their advice. Also, he failed to reinforce any cities he captured during the campaign, making Wu's attack that much easier, anddid not request reinforcements when it was obvious what was going to happen.

Now, I truly feel he wasn't up for a commanding role like he had in Jing, and most likely didn't get the position based on skill, but the longevity that he had served Liu Bei. I feel he would have been okay, as long as he had a commanding officer that he would listen to above him.
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Unread postby Matteo Ricci » Tue Dec 18, 2007 6:09 am

If we compare the "real" Guan Yu and his portrayal in the novel, I believe he is overrated. However, to evaluate him fairly, we have to look at him as a regular general without bias from the novel.

If we just consider Guan Yu as a human being with a fault, then I think he is a good general. However, Guan Yu's biggest problem is his pride. Sun Tzu in his Art of War had already warned of the problem of proud generals. Zhuge Liang had already worried about Guan Yu's pride and both Lu Meng and Lu Xun played on his pride.

Granted, he is a capable general, able to use local warlords and even brigands so much that even Cao Cao was thinking of moving the capital (though to be honest, I am unsure whether it was a historical event or another exaggeration by LGZ). However, again, his fault was his pride and it was his downfall.
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