Guan Yu..your opinion on him

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What do you think about Guan Yu

I like him, he is been underestimated to much..
46
49%
I don't like him...he is overrated..
48
51%
 
Total votes : 94

Re: Guan Yu..your opinion on him

Unread postby Han » Sat Jan 20, 2018 11:06 pm

Agreed. Seeing Guan Yu suxks all the time gets so tiring overtime... A balanced view on this dude is always welcome.
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Re: Guan Yu..your opinion on him

Unread postby Li_Shengsun » Fri Mar 01, 2019 1:34 am

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ok, here's my vote. Hes overated, good bye, the end :mrgreen:

Im here now, what do you want to discuss?
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Re: Guan Yu..your opinion on him

Unread postby PyroMystic » Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:38 am

I cannot believe I never actually posted something here despite having voted here!

I'm among those who believe that Guan Yu is actually overrated. Here, people worship him as god so there's no reason to say he isn't overrated. Granted, he's a strong warrior, but then why not worship Lu Bu? Okay, perhaps he's loyal to Liu Bei, but so is Zhao Yun to Liu Bei, and virtually all persons being made a character in Dynasty Warriors is a good warrior who serves their lord loyally so there's no reason to single out a guy and make him some god. Is it because Guan Yu is proud and arrogant? But since when being proud and arrogant is a good thing in China? That's precisely the reason of his downfall!

So yeah, I think Guan Yu is being overrated to a very godly status (literally).
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Re: Guan Yu..your opinion on him

Unread postby Sun Fin » Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:17 am

As ever the answer depends on context. If we are talking about China, then yes he is certainly over rated. If we are talking about by members of SoSZ then no I don't think so. When people first read the history and realise that the novel exaggerates many things they have a massive over corrective and decide he was rubbish. Most of us gradually move somewhere into the middle. I think he was a superb warrior, his killing of a named officer is almost unique. The problem is we get very little detail on the early part of his career - his time serving under Zou Jing and Tian Kai for example - so we don't know what he did that seems to have led many of his peers to rate him very highly.
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Re: Guan Yu..your opinion on him

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Mar 01, 2019 5:48 pm

PyroMystic first as shorter answer

PyroMystic

I agree with Sun Fin. My understanding is Guan Yu being a God/saint was less a "strongest of them all" thing but due to things like his famed bond with his brother, his reputation for honour, the Han popularity in the centuries of civil war and outside invasion that followed the 3kingdoms and that his being it wasn't going to put anyone in an awkward position. I have no particular issue with his being God of War, as long as people can separate that figure from the history one.

I also agree with Sun Fin that in the western 3k community, he gets overly hit. When people discover the novel/culture isn't true, various figures get a huge backlash (everything they do suck and they steal candy) and others deemed hurt by the novel become saints and super-awesome, it takes awhile for people to find the right balance. At the moment the current version of that going around is the Cao Shuang vs Sima Yi case. Guan Yu's balance has still not been found due to Shu's poor history department, it is clear he was held in extremely high regard but due to the lack of information pre-Jing, it is hardly to entirely see why. I still think the balance with his time in Jing (he played his hand fairly poorly but people go too far and the arrogance is used to beat him on everything) hasn't quite been found either.

Li-Shengsun

Well, Zhang Fei was noted to be a great warrior because he was able to outwit Zhang He, whom skilled can be said on par on his own.

He (Huang Zhong) wasn't?

the two experienced military figures who, sorry to add, had no experience in archery, of course they would be wowed to see such demonstration, though it was an incredible feat to make the two figures stopped from battling.


No. Zhang Fei is noted as a great warrior for the Cheng Yu and Chen Shou comments, his actions at Hanzhong (and elsewhere) make Zhang Fei one of Shu's best ever generals.

Afraid not

Well more then one given that this was a meeting with multiple time, it is unlikely none of them had no skill at a bow. Or that in their entire time, nobody in those two armies had observed archery enough to have some understanding of the skill despite being miliatry officers. Or witnessed people practise archery. It would require an amazing set of circumstances for every miliatry officer at that event to have no expirence of archery in that era.

It was on Lu Meng's. I meant, if he werent strict and be kind toward his men, his men wouldve never deserted him and wouldve help him to storm the castle or fought to the death to ensure Yu managed to escape. Its only his inner circle like Liao Hua and Zhao Lei who remain loyal to the end. Liao Hua had to faked his death so he could escape, whilst Zhao Lei wouldve most likely executed aftermath, since there was no further mention of him.

Well, im sure Mi Fang wouldve be glad to defend the castle IF Guan Yu weren't threatening his life. I doubt Yu wouldve known until it was too late, since it was a covert attack, Lu Meng wouldve made sure none of the messenger get past his siege.


I see Lu Meng talking of Guan Yu's ambition, lying, haughty. Not strict? Sorry, I'm clearly missing it so can you please quote me the passage?

There are other reasons to desert other then strictness and Lu Meng's SGZ puts it down to families, good treatment. It doesn't speak great for Guan Yu, sure, but it says nothing about him being strict. It raises questions about his ability as a governor to command loyalty

Well he was inclined to initially until his fellow defender defected and it still required Yu Fan, the golden tongued one to get involved before he did surrender. Mi Fang's mistake was execution worthy with standards of time, Guan Yu withholding actually killing Mi Fang may have been an attempt to spare Mi Fang or simply he wanted to concentrate on siege first. His wider attitudes to Mi Fang on the other hand was not good.

Possibly (though cutting them off that effectively was rare) but Guan Yu would have been sending to Jing for supplies, word, news, sending some soldiers home for leave and so it would have been picked up that a siege was going on.

I hardly think anyone wouldve done the same like you do AFTER you refused to sent out reinforcement to Guan Yu.
If I were in Meng Da's position, i wouldve felt uneasy when Guan Yu showed up AFTER i refused to help him, and closed the castle gate until i ascertain his true intention. So far i know, Guan Yu who was arrogant wouldve felt agitated if that were the case and threaten me the same way he did to Mi Fang. In which leading Meng Da to rebel/defect. Moreoverly those people like Shen Yi, Shen Dan and Li Fu werent very loyal to Liu Bei, mightve used this opportunity and urged Meng Da to defect.


I get the uneasy but why you would promptly ensure you were seen as a traitor by turning on Guan Yu's army and ensuring your fate? Why ensure your own death with a revolt? Guan Yu has no authority to kill you (and would also have to kill Liu Feng), you have a good reason for not sending reinforcements, a calm head and a decent tongue should see you through.

I had assumed in this scenario that we didn't deliberately add execution offences (like Mi Fang's) to our situation. Sure the locals seemed more inclined to Meng Da then to the overall regime, they might be less inclined with an army at their doorstep

Those who served him were only knew Lu Bu was the Han Hero who slain traitor Dong Zhuo, so they only serve him in mind they wouldve become famous and with other ulterior motives, with the exception of Gao Shun, whose wholeheartedly served him. Chen Gong is a double faced scumbag.

The people who opposed him, like Cao Cao and Liu Bei clearly knew he would be an adversary should he remained alive, since with his Heroic reputation, Lu Bu would attract talented men. Bear in mind, that Cao Cao wanted all talented men to serve him instead of other.


proof? List me those were we know those were the motives behind serving Lu Bu. Including those who served Lu Bu before he killed Dong Zhuo. Why is Lu Bu unique that those are the only two motives people had for serving him unlike the multitude others had for serving their warlords?

Sure, Lu Bu was a potential threat as he had a personal following, fame, skill and a record for disloyalty. Cao Cao did kill other talented men who he couldn't feel he could trust.

None of this explains why famed talent spotters were suddenly unable to tell the difference between warrior and aura for this one guy and why you, thousands of years later, can tell eyewitnesses were wrong.

The Shu Ji recorded an incident about Xu Huang encountering Guan Yu on the battlefield. Xu Huang was previously a close friend of Guan Yu. They often chatted about other things apart from military affairs. When they met again at Fancheng, Xu Huang gave an order to his men: "Whoever takes Guan Yunchang's head will be rewarded with 1,000 jin of gold." A shocked Guan Yu asked Xu Huang, "Brother, what are you talking about?" Xu Huang replied, "This is an affair of the state!"

Guan Yu and Xu Huang was a close friend during his time in service under Cao Cao. See this is what im trying to tell about, you dont casually approach an enemy general even though you're previously close friend before, set aside your bond for your state affairs. Guan Yu seems unable to set aside those boundary, which resulting him to be shocked with Xu Huang's statement.

Previously when he was in the service of Cao Cao, he was approached by Zhang Liao, he established himself to be an honorable and dutiful man to Liu Bei, yet he seemed to fail to understand Xu Huang's action?
are you really that naive to think your close friend from enemy states who was on duty would casually approached you on battlefield and had a chit chat about Sunday night movies?


That is the same source. Your using an older translation, I was using a newer one, thus the different wording. The ZZTJ doesn't cover it

It wasn't unknown for such chats to happen, Yang Hu and Lu Kang, Han Sui and Cao Cao two famed examples. Note nobody at the time or afterwards criticized Guan Yu for it. Nobody felt he crossed the boundary. Or the others.

Thanks for the insult :wink: Again this wasn't something people objected to, such chats could happen and yes during a chat outside of battle, I wouldn't expect "oh yeah I saw that game on Saturday.... MONEY TO KILL HIM!" no. I would expect him to try to kill me in the battle with everything he had but not mid chat.

I'm sorry, who opposed him? When Cao Cao took Hanzhong, his position in Yizhou was already threatened since Zhang He was already on the way to attack Baxi. Hanzhong was the "gateway" to Yizhou, it should be seized if he wanted to secure Yizhou province. No one opposed him, he's even consulting to Zhou Qun, the diviner who states: "You will get the territory but you won't have its people. If you send a detachment of your main army to attack (instead of sending your main army), you will lose the battle. You should be very careful about this!"

Hence why the territorial disputes between him and Sun Quan is 'settled', since he can't fight on both front. A clever move, but those left animosity between him and Sun Quan that would span to the death of Guan Yu, Zhang Fei and himself, whilst weakening Shu for decades in the process. Zhou Qun even predicted that Shu was destined to fall.


Zhang Yu while Zhuge Liang had to be persuaded to reinforce Hanzhong camapign. I agree, Zhuge Liang's reluctance was a bad call by him

I'm not sure why your explaining Zhou Qun to me?

Not planning, but was already sent a messenger to call for Guan Yu's support. it was Hou Yin who rebelled on Wan. Hou Yin's rebellion was probably taken Cao Cao by surprise, since Cao Cao must divert all his resource he was preparing for Guan Yu to suppress Hou Yin instead. but just like Elitemsh said, Guan Yu was trying to build up his reputation and strength first, not to mention Lu Meng was still around glaring at Jingzhou, mightve use those opportunity to attack should Yu sent support for Hou Yin. Just like Dong Zhou said, Fancheng can be said the "gateway" to Wei's heartland.
Hou Yin's rebellion was Guan Yu's golden opportunity to attack Wei, since Wei was diverting their attention on him and Cao Cao was still engaging Liu Bei on Hanzhong. Meaning, less defense he's gonna deal with on Xiangyang and Fancheng. He couldve notify Liu Bei to station men on Yong An should Lu Meng decided to attack Jingzhou while he was away to help Hou Yin. But he didn't, instead he sit around building his reputation and let Hou Yin died, hence he lose those opportunity.


Ok so you have managed to find the most negative possible version of events you can to hit Guan Yu.

Now try thinking why Guan Yu wasn't able to arrive to reinforce Hou Yin.

The Shu-Wu alliance was in name only, there never was any alliances even after post-Yiling. Since it was Sun Quan who ordered Shi Yi to entice Yong Kai to rebel, hence why Zhuge Liang's southern campaign took place. Wu always looking for an opportunity to conquer Shu, but never wanted to dirty their hands on it.


Sun Quan encouraging that was before the alliance was rebuilt I believe?

he never was a bully, just like you said, He was just annoyed why he needed to work with some cowards in Liu Bei's team and not some respected warriors in Cao Cao's team, to which is why i doubted where his actual allegiances lies. Hes even looked down on Huang Zhong, when Liu Bei claims to be the king of Hanzhong, Yu was furious as he was appointed the same rank as Huang Zhong by stating “I’m better than that dunderhead!” (eventually Guan agreed to accept the arrangement). these statement was probably from De Crespigny, but nevertheless he was did furious that time.


Yes he was angry. It is the sort of thing that makes me think he was insecure beneath the arrogance
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Re: Guan Yu..your opinion on him

Unread postby Li_Shengsun » Mon Mar 04, 2019 9:38 am

Dong Zhou wrote:No. Zhang Fei is noted as a great warrior for the Cheng Yu and Chen Shou comments, his actions at Hanzhong (and elsewhere) make Zhang Fei one of Shu's best ever generals.

Afraid not

Well more then one given that this was a meeting with multiple time, it is unlikely none of them had no skill at a bow. Or that in their entire time, nobody in those two armies had observed archery enough to have some understanding of the skill despite being miliatry officers. Or witnessed people practise archery. It would require an amazing set of circumstances for every miliatry officer at that event to have no expirence of archery in that era.


I see

they have skill at bow or ever witnessing archery skill before, but not to the extreme like Lu Bu is. Like when they do hunting party etc, but most of these archery skill was common on that days.
I've tried an archery simulation b4. shooting a moving balloon from afar. it was indeed hard, require an intense focus and calculation on its trajectory toward its target. So i understand both figures would be wowed when they seen Lu Bu hit the mark hes aiming from a considerable distance, because its not like theyve ever seen from hunting or archery practice before.


I see Lu Meng talking of Guan Yu's ambition, lying, haughty. Not strict? Sorry, I'm clearly missing it so can you please quote me the passage?

There are other reasons to desert other then strictness and Lu Meng's SGZ puts it down to families, good treatment. It doesn't speak great for Guan Yu, sure, but it says nothing about him being strict. It raises questions about his ability as a governor to command loyalty

Well he was inclined to initially until his fellow defender defected and it still required Yu Fan, the golden tongued one to get involved before he did surrender. Mi Fang's mistake was execution worthy with standards of time, Guan Yu withholding actually killing Mi Fang may have been an attempt to spare Mi Fang or simply he wanted to concentrate on siege first. His wider attitudes to Mi Fang on the other hand was not good.

Possibly (though cutting them off that effectively was rare) but Guan Yu would have been sending to Jing for supplies, word, news, sending some soldiers home for leave and so it would have been picked up that a siege was going on.


Wasn't that obvious? when a subject received a good treatment and the subject left you for the guy he received good treatment from is a sign you never was kind to them, or not good enough to instill loyalty to them. am i had to explained it again and again until im tiring out myself? or was you just playing dumb trying to measure my intelligence?

Even if so, there was no need for Yu Fan to get involved. Mi Fang's fate already sealed the moment he made those mistake, i think it was foolish of him to linger, when someone would come back and take his life. Warrior Pride? loyalty toward his brother Mi Zhu or Liu Bei? No one would care!
All Liu Bei would care is what Guan Yu report of his carelessness and being put to death because of it, and Mi Zhu wouldve just accepted it!


I get the uneasy but why you would promptly ensure you were seen as a traitor by turning on Guan Yu's army and ensuring your fate? Why ensure your own death with a revolt? Guan Yu has no authority to kill you (and would also have to kill Liu Feng), you have a good reason for not sending reinforcements, a calm head and a decent tongue should see you through.

I had assumed in this scenario that we didn't deliberately add execution offences (like Mi Fang's) to our situation. Sure the locals seemed more inclined to Meng Da then to the overall regime, they might be less inclined with an army at their doorstep


Does Meng Da is a type who would think with calm head? If Guan Yu show up, then the bulk of Wei army led by Xu Huang wouldnt be that far behind. crossing toward Shangyong via Jiangling would require to cross Wei's land on Fancheng. Shen Yi, Shen Dan and Li Fu who was pro-Wei supporter would urged Meng Da to defect to Wei. This would thrown Meng Da into a dilemma, just like he was during Zhuge Liang's campaign when he was presented by both Zhuge Liang's and Sima Yi's letter.


proof? List me those were we know those were the motives behind serving Lu Bu. Including those who served Lu Bu before he killed Dong Zhuo. Why is Lu Bu unique that those are the only two motives people had for serving him unlike the multitude others had for serving their warlords?

Sure, Lu Bu was a potential threat as he had a personal following, fame, skill and a record for disloyalty. Cao Cao did kill other talented men who he couldn't feel he could trust.

None of this explains why famed talent spotters were suddenly unable to tell the difference between warrior and aura for this one guy and why you, thousands of years later, can tell eyewitnesses were wrong.


Ok, Goldilocks. since its obviously you're pretty experienced in defining talents, why don't you define Lu Bu then? why he was called the Greatest Warrior of Three Kingdom Era? Since you're pretty much bored to hear mine bashing him, why don't you give me a lecture about how he was called that, pretty please, id love to hear that.


That is the same source. Your using an older translation, I was using a newer one, thus the different wording. The ZZTJ doesn't cover it

It wasn't unknown for such chats to happen, Yang Hu and Lu Kang, Han Sui and Cao Cao two famed examples. Note nobody at the time or afterwards criticized Guan Yu for it. Nobody felt he crossed the boundary. Or the others.

Thanks for the insult :wink: Again this wasn't something people objected to, such chats could happen and yes during a chat outside of battle, I wouldn't expect "oh yeah I saw that game on Saturday.... MONEY TO KILL HIM!" no. I would expect him to try to kill me in the battle with everything he had but not mid chat.


I never known Yang Hu and Lu Kang chat during battle, but yeah they were fine example. Cao Cao and Han Sui chat were part of novel i think. Cao Cao never did chat with him, only send a forgery letter addressed to him to make Ma Chao suspicious on him.
Well, yea, nobodies criticized on him because he was worshiped as god, good thing i wasn't, well i used to when i was being good child who follow his parents.

Just a note, bruh. My critic on Guan Yu or Lu Bu weren't as bad as JC!

Oh sorry, if i was insulting you even though i weren't meant to, luckily i wasn't Kong Rong right? Who said it was about mid-chat? it was about Xu Huang who utter those word and Guan Yu reaction as if they weren't enemies.


Zhang Yu while Zhuge Liang had to be persuaded to reinforce Hanzhong camapign. I agree, Zhuge Liang's reluctance was a bad call by him

I'm not sure why your explaining Zhou Qun to me?


So far i know Zhang Yu and Zhou Qun was on the same profession as diviner. Zhou Qun explained it in more detail. While Zhang Yu just said, "If you attack, you'll suffer a defeat!". Tell me, as Liu Bei, would you be so kind toward a man whose supposed to be diviner to tell you a future in a short word, one that auspicious that is? A diviner was supposed to relay a future auspicious or not and tell how to overcome it, not just "If you attack, you'll suffer defeat". And Zhang Yu wasn't objected to Liu Bei, its just because of his bad choice of wording.


Ok so you have managed to find the most negative possible version of events you can to hit Guan Yu.

Now try thinking why Guan Yu wasn't able to arrive to reinforce Hou Yin.


What the most negative possible version of events to hit him? i was just pointing out, IF Guan Yu wanted to attack Xiangyang and Fancheng, Hou Yin's rebellion was the right time! When you wanted to attack someone's country, you would wait for the opportunity to come so the area you want to attack would be less guarded, thats how Lu Meng exploit is, and so does the other figures like Zhuge Liang, Cao Cao etc is!

"Now try thinking why Guan Yu wasn't able to arrive to reinforce Hou Yin"
What's with this wording? why i felt you intentionally put this wording just to test my intelligence and try to corner me out?
Now i return the question back to you, Hou Yin DID sending a runner to ask for his aid, DOES he ever sending reinforcement to Hou Yin?


Sun Quan encouraging that was before the alliance was rebuilt I believe?


I think the Nanman revolt event was after the alliance was rebuilt? you're know better than me though. :?


Yes he was angry. It is the sort of thing that makes me think he was insecure beneath the arrogance


Oh, so you think because of his insecurity he started to look other who serving Liu Bei in contempt? even scorning them? what kind of 'godly' general did this? it was so intriguing he was worshiped as god after his death. sorry, no offense. :)
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Re: Guan Yu..your opinion on him

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:31 pm

they have skill at bow or ever witnessing archery skill before, but not to the extreme like Lu Bu is. Like when they do hunting party etc, but most of these archery skill was common on that days.
I've tried an archery simulation b4. shooting a moving balloon from afar. it was indeed hard, require an intense focus and calculation on its trajectory toward its target. So i understand both figures would be wowed when they seen Lu Bu hit the mark hes aiming from a considerable distance, because its not like theyve ever seen from hunting or archery practice before.


I agree archery is a difficult skill but is that now showing Lu Bu was doing something very difficult and thus the praise?

Wasn't that obvious? when a subject received a good treatment and the subject left you for the guy he received good treatment from is a sign you never was kind to them, or not good enough to instill loyalty to them. am i had to explained it again and again until im tiring out myself? or was you just playing dumb trying to measure my intelligence?

Even if so, there was no need for Yu Fan to get involved. Mi Fang's fate already sealed the moment he made those mistake, i think it was foolish of him to linger, when someone would come back and take his life. Warrior Pride? loyalty toward his brother Mi Zhu or Liu Bei? No one would care!
All Liu Bei would care is what Guan Yu report of his carelessness and being put to death because of it, and Mi Zhu wouldve just accepted it!


Not really, one could treat a person kindly and they still defect. That they defect doesn't mean they were treated strictly. Which is what your claiming, Guan Yu lost them becuase he was too strict and that Lu Meng said it. Guan Yu being a bad governor is another matter (I agree but think people go too far) and no I'm not playing dumb, your saying something that you haven't yet been able to back up (though I sometimes play devil's advocate when people go too far, on the strictness I just disagree with you)

Wu required Yu Fan as it was. Mi Fang's fate wasn't sealed, that is a huge assumption that he was going to die and the reactions of others.

Does Meng Da is a type who would think with calm head? If Guan Yu show up, then the bulk of Wei army led by Xu Huang wouldnt be that far behind. crossing toward Shangyong via Jiangling would require to cross Wei's land on Fancheng. Shen Yi, Shen Dan and Li Fu who was pro-Wei supporter would urged Meng Da to defect to Wei. This would thrown Meng Da into a dilemma, just like he was during Zhuge Liang's campaign when he was presented by both Zhuge Liang's and Sima Yi's letter.


Yes and bear in mind he didn't rebel till Liu Feng stole things from him.

Wouldn't that mean Guan Yu would retreat into Yi via other means instead of via Wei lands?

Ok, Goldilocks. since its obviously you're pretty experienced in defining talents, why don't you define Lu Bu then? why he was called the Greatest Warrior of Three Kingdom Era? Since you're pretty much bored to hear mine bashing him, why don't you give me a lecture about how he was called that, pretty please, id love to hear that.


I know what Goldilocks means but not sure that applies here?

He wasn't at the time. Why was he called a great warrior? Unlike many warriors like Zhang Fei, we do get unusual amount of glimpses of his strength (which is why people now argue for him as the greatest) and it is impressive. We have his being hired for his strength, we have people who fought with and against him talking of his strength, people who could spot talent and who (in an era full of warriors), had the first hand expirence to know which ones were a cut above the rest. They say Lu Bu was, they were eye-witnesses. I, more then a thousand years later, am not and I have no reason to doubt the honesty of their judgement.

I'm not bored. I also suspect sarcasm at the end there.

I never known Yang Hu and Lu Kang chat during battle, but yeah they were fine example. Cao Cao and Han Sui chat were part of novel i think. Cao Cao never did chat with him, only send a forgery letter addressed to him to make Ma Chao suspicious on him.
Well, yea, nobodies criticized on him because he was worshiped as god, good thing i wasn't, well i used to when i was being good child who follow his parents.

Just a note, bruh. My critic on Guan Yu or Lu Bu weren't as bad as JC!

Oh sorry, if i was insulting you even though i weren't meant to, luckily i wasn't Kong Rong right? Who said it was about mid-chat? it was about Xu Huang who utter those word and Guan Yu reaction as if they weren't enemies.


The novel borrowed it but it is in Cao Cao's SGZ.

He wasn't worshipped as a god in his own time or when the annotations were being made and discussed. So that concern doesn't apply here. I can imagine it must be frustrating not being able to critisize a mortal and very flawed (even the novel, he is flawed) man.

I'm assuming JC is Jesus

No problem. Yes lucky your not Kong Rong (or Mi Heng!). :wink: The Shuji says From afar they conversed, though they only spoke of common life and not military affairs. then Xu Huang issues the challenge. By the way I gave you wrong link in last post should have been this one, my bad

So far i know Zhang Yu and Zhou Qun was on the same profession as diviner. Zhou Qun explained it in more detail. While Zhang Yu just said, "If you attack, you'll suffer a defeat!". Tell me, as Liu Bei, would you be so kind toward a man whose supposed to be diviner to tell you a future in a short word, one that auspicious that is? A diviner was supposed to relay a future auspicious or not and tell how to overcome it, not just "If you attack, you'll suffer defeat". And Zhang Yu wasn't objected to Liu Bei, its just because of his bad choice of wording.


Yep both diviners/soothsayers.

Sorry I'm not I'm understanding your general point here, could you try again? I'm drawing a complete blank.

What the most negative possible version of events to hit him? i was just pointing out, IF Guan Yu wanted to attack Xiangyang and Fancheng, Hou Yin's rebellion was the right time! When you wanted to attack someone's country, you would wait for the opportunity to come so the area you want to attack would be less guarded, thats how Lu Meng exploit is, and so does the other figures like Zhuge Liang, Cao Cao etc is!

"Now try thinking why Guan Yu wasn't able to arrive to reinforce Hou Yin"
What's with this wording? why i felt you intentionally put this wording just to test my intelligence and try to corner me out?
Now i return the question back to you, Hou Yin DID sending a runner to ask for his aid, DOES he ever sending reinforcement to Hou Yin?


The negative bit is where you frame it as Guan Yu not attacking becuase "But he didn't, instead he sit around building his reputation".

However I owe you an apology, of late I have had too many "Guan Yu did this becuase" where the answer is always finding the super negative. You haven't been doing that and should not have got the backlash of it, I am sorry for my unfairness.

The answer is no, Guan Yu didn't arrive.

The reason. No stated reason is given but the likelihood? Quite possibly, it was impossible for Guan Yu to move in the time frame. Bear in mind it took Yuan Shao a year, Liu Bei two for Guandu and Yiling respectively. It took Cao Cao a long time to get reinforcements to Xiahou Yuan at Hanzhong. It would have taken time for message to get to Guan Yu, then he has to gather up his army, prepare sufficient supplies for a siege, make arrangements for Jing, get plans prepared (winter timing may not helped). This all takes considerable time and Hou Yin's revolt did not last till the spring.

I think the Nanman revolt event was after the alliance was rebuilt? you're know better than me though. :?


Looked it up: Yong Kai had been caused trouble from about 215, seeking support via Bu Zhi and even sent captive Zhang Yi to Wu in 223 so Liu Bei had left him alone for awhile. Wu gave Yong Kai rank in a shot at Liu Bei for the second one but ordered his forces to keep away

Oh, so you think because of his insecurity he started to look other who serving Liu Bei in contempt? even scorning them? what kind of 'godly' general did this? it was so intriguing he was worshiped as god after his death. sorry, no offense. :)


I more think his letter to Liu Bei was a plea not to be forgotten and seeking reassurance via slighted pride.

Wouldn't be the only time flawed figures were worshipped in history. I think the reasons he got, way way after his death, worshipped as I understand it: due to things like his famed bond with his brother, his reputation in his time for honour lived on, the Han popularity in the centuries of civil war and outside invasion that followed the 3kingdoms added lustre to his name and that his being God of War wasn't going to put anyone in an awkward position in regards this own clan/empires history.
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Re: Guan Yu..your opinion on him

Unread postby Li_Shengsun » Wed Mar 06, 2019 1:18 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:I agree archery is a difficult skill but is that now showing Lu Bu was doing something very difficult and thus the praise


Eh, i did praised him for using his archery skill to amaze the two figures and persuaded them to stop fighting. :?


Not really, one could treat a person kindly and they still defect. That they defect doesn't mean they were treated strictly. Which is what your claiming, Guan Yu lost them becuase he was too strict and that Lu Meng said it. Guan Yu being a bad governor is another matter (I agree but think people go too far) and no I'm not playing dumb, your saying something that you haven't yet been able to back up (though I sometimes play devil's advocate when people go too far, on the strictness I just disagree with you)

Wu required Yu Fan as it was. Mi Fang's fate wasn't sealed, that is a huge assumption that he was going to die and the reactions of others.


i see.


Yes and bear in mind he didn't rebel till Liu Feng stole things from him.

Wouldn't that mean Guan Yu would retreat into Yi via other means instead of via Wei lands?


You mean through Meicheng toward Linju? wasn't he captured and beheaded there? the only way to safely travel was via Shangyong, given his situation being locked between Wu and Wei. His path toward Yi (west) is Meicheng, which is a hilly terrain. the other (east) is river i think (area where Changban is)
- Edit - I meant, if he travel with his son, Zhao Lei and Liao Hua only, Wei would most likely wont notice it if he travel pretty far from where the Fan Castle is. its difficult to spot people travelling afar from castle top. Just like what exploiting the gap of defense were all about. Travelling via hilly terrain would make you weary, therefore prone to surprise attack.
or if they have few hundreds of die-hard men still around, they could do what Leonidas would do, charging toward Wu's line while screaming "SPARTAAAAAAAA!" and hope none of the archers aimed at him. :lol:

He wasn't at the time. Why was he called a great warrior? Unlike many warriors like Zhang Fei, we do get unusual amount of glimpses of his strength (which is why people now argue for him as the greatest) and it is impressive. We have his being hired for his strength, we have people who fought with and against him talking of his strength, people who could spot talent and who (in an era full of warriors), had the first hand expirence to know which ones were a cut above the rest. They say Lu Bu was, they were eye-witnesses. I, more then a thousand years later, am not and I have no reason to doubt the honesty of their judgement.

I'm not bored. I also suspect sarcasm at the end there.


I see, so thats how talents are spotted. Back then ive no idea how this kingdom era way to spot talents is, maybe through hearsay or eye-witness, but these source are usually were exaggerated which why the Rumors are all about. Even Liu Bei doesnt know ZGL's existence until Xu Shu mentioned him even though ZGL lived pretty close within his area when hes staying with Liu Biao.

Nope, no sarcasm, im just a man of blind knowledge but with undimming curiosity, would want to expect an enlightened knowledge from people who know better on certain area of expertise. :mrgreen:


The novel borrowed it but it is in Cao Cao's SGZ.

No problem. Yes lucky your not Kong Rong (or Mi Heng!). :wink: The Shuji says From afar they conversed, though they only spoke of common life and not military affairs. then Xu Huang issues the challenge. By the way I gave you wrong link in last post should have been this one, my bad


I see.

Thx, need to read those as well. :)

- Edit - after reading this, that makes me even less respect on Guan Yu. This implying that he is a type who easily get carried by friendly chat with a person whom he know or close before regardless whether the person was his ally or foe, not to mention he'd forget his duty while this going on. Im sorry i had to say this again, you dont casually chat with a person from enemy nation even if he was your friend.
If i were Guan Yu, i would certainly provoked Xu Huang the way Lu Bu provoked Guo Si into a duel. By shouting: "你表示這些獎勵! 讓我們有個男人對男人的戰鬥,如果你夠勇敢! 讓我們不要讓任何一個人參與其中並自行獲得獎勵!“. If Xu Huang refuse, his men mostly lose morale and also lose significant reputation of him as a warrior among Cao Cao's rank, and i would try to entice some of his men into defecting. And if i were to kill Xu Huang, so be it. Mourn after the battle was over.

Yep both diviners/soothsayers.

Sorry I'm not I'm understanding your general point here, could you try again? I'm drawing a complete blank.


Back then you said Zhang Yu was objected about Hanzhong campaign, so im trying to give reason that he wasn't.

i was pretty confused about it as well. since both person's bio were written differently. on Zhou Qun's bio, what Zhang Yu said "attack, and you'll suffer a defeat", which i implies he meant the same thing as Zhou Qun said about not sending detachment forces. But on Zhang Yu's bio, it was written he was actually objected on Hanzhong campaign.

His bio did say about Liu Bei sacked him for his wrong prediction on Hanzhong though. So, i think what written on Zhou Qun's bio was true. Zhang Yu wasn't objected, and were meant the same thing about not sending detachment forces, but his choice of word were implying that he objected to the campaign.


The negative bit is where you frame it as Guan Yu not attacking becuase "But he didn't, instead he sit around building his reputation".

However I owe you an apology, of late I have had too many "Guan Yu did this becuase" where the answer is always finding the super negative. You haven't been doing that and should not have got the backlash of it, I am sorry for my unfairness.

The answer is no, Guan Yu didn't arrive.

The reason. No stated reason is given but the likelihood? Quite possibly, it was impossible for Guan Yu to move in the time frame. Bear in mind it took Yuan Shao a year, Liu Bei two for Guandu and Yiling respectively. It took Cao Cao a long time to get reinforcements to Xiahou Yuan at Hanzhong. It would have taken time for message to get to Guan Yu, then he has to gather up his army, prepare sufficient supplies for a siege, make arrangements for Jing, get plans prepared (winter timing may not helped). This all takes considerable time and Hou Yin's revolt did not last till the spring.


no problem.

I understand the timing and the fact that Hou Yin's rebellion was shortlived (last only few months). i know it'll take time to muster a forces as well as administration of ration etc. And that Hou Yin would be dead long before Guan Yu arrive.
Since launching a campaign was impossible, would that be better to think about how to gaining allies instead? and quite possibly more soldiers for later campaign? I know its a bit of a gamble, if Cao Ren wouldnt fall for it Hou Yin would die.

Fancheng was emptied, or less guarded, you know, summon available men few hundreds at most to send as a decoy, make as if Guan Yu sending men to attack Fancheng and/or Xiangyang. Since if Cao Ren took the bait, he would rush up back to Fancheng to defend against Guan Yu's attack, buying Hou Yin time to pack up and joined up with Yu. Therefore he gain an allies with him.


Looked it up: Yong Kai had been caused trouble from about 215, seeking support via Bu Zhi and even sent captive Zhang Yi to Wu in 223 so Liu Bei had left him alone for awhile. Wu gave Yong Kai rank in a shot at Liu Bei for the second one but ordered his forces to keep away


I see, it was before the renewed alliance.
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Re: Guan Yu..your opinion on him

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Mar 08, 2019 6:34 pm

Eh, i did praised him for using his archery skill to amaze the two figures and persuaded them to stop fighting. :?


True, I also think I took another line too literally but I thought you were disputing his archery as a warrior achievement? I must have misunderstood, my bad

You mean through Meicheng toward Linju? wasn't he captured and beheaded there? the only way to safely travel was via Shangyong, given his situation being locked between Wu and Wei. His path toward Yi (west) is Meicheng, which is a hilly terrain. the other (east) is river i think (area where Changban is)
- Edit - I meant, if he travel with his son, Zhao Lei and Liao Hua only, Wei would most likely wont notice it if he travel pretty far from where the Fan Castle is. its difficult to spot people travelling afar from castle top. Just like what exploiting the gap of defense were all about. Travelling via hilly terrain would make you weary, therefore prone to surprise attack.
or if they have few hundreds of die-hard men still around, they could do what Leonidas would do, charging toward Wu's line while screaming "SPARTAAAAAAAA!" and hope none of the archers aimed at him. :lol:


His army might not collapse in this circumstance so he would be harder to capture. I am frankly useless at geography so I'll take your word on the route

I think he should have shouted Sparta, Wu would have let him go in the confusion :wink: Such small escort retreats are a risk but could be done but if he has the soldiers to fight in Jing ala if the attack is after he has taken Fan, I think he would bunker down and wait for reinforcements.

I see, so thats how talents are spotted. Back then ive no idea how this kingdom era way to spot talents is, maybe through hearsay or eye-witness, but these source are usually were exaggerated which why the Rumors are all about. Even Liu Bei doesnt know ZGL's existence until Xu Shu mentioned him even though ZGL lived pretty close within his area when hes staying with Liu Biao.

Nope, no sarcasm, im just a man of blind knowledge but with undimming curiosity, would want to expect an enlightened knowledge from people who know better on certain area of expertise. :mrgreen:


Sorry, I thought you were asking how we know so and so's are top level warriors. Frankly sometimes all we can do (ala Zhang Fei, Yan Liang) is take their word

In terms of how they spotted talent? For someone like Lu Bu someone of such strength would have got noted in the local area (you probably knew who the strong guy was at school for example), he joins local army (possibly with followers, he seems to have had some education to read and write so may have had enough money for retainers) and gets noticed, climbs up Ding Yuan's ranks during the battles Ding Yuan fought in. He was in position to assassinate Ding Yuan and bring the officers to join Dong Zhuo but being alongside the elite soldiers of the realm, he would have also got noticed. Even during the coalition, the gentry would have had allies in capital who would have spread word of figures they noticed. Lu Bu's skill in battle would have got noticed by friends and ally, word spreads, as a warlord his killing of Ding Yuan+Dong Zhuo gained a certain fame and he had troops which makes him useful for hire. Chen Gong for example would not have, probably, seen Lu Bu in battle before Zhang Miao but Lu Bu was useful timing for him due to soldiers and he would have heard from those who knew people at capital or Yuan Shao that Lu Bu was strong.

In some ways, miliatry people proved talent (once they got started, bringing troops got you a boost up the ranks) or lack of it by fighting. For the civil service? The exam system with probation at the capital "worked" once there was kingdoms again, works less well when provincial warlords.

1) Each local administrator had figures like officers of Merit whose job was to find talent. They would tour around, keep an eye on performances of those around them, keep an ear out and then go to their boss "so and so might be worth a try."

2) Patronage/networking. Some officers like Zhong Yao were famed for discovery of talent and if they came across someone of talent (meetings like Sima Yi and Deng Ai) or spotting someone doing well in their administrative jobs, simply those they come across in their duties of personal life then recommending up the line. On less healthy systems like the Han in it's dying days, powerful gentry figures (the Yuan's were good at this) would push forward their clients who of course would serve their interests in return for the career boost. Scholarship circles, as they would consider their circle intelligent talent and of good character, would tend to promote each other.

Zhuge Liang example was known as one of Sima Hui's circle and as you said, recommend to Liu Bei by a friend Xu Shu.

3) What they looked for: frankly the local gentry they wanted onside for sake of resources, political support and goodwill. :wink: Those willing to join, particularly early days, would get a leg up to encourage others to join. That aside...

Those inside the administration they would look for good advice and good handling of their posts in terms of ability and doing it honestly, those who could bring through talent. They would keep an ear/eye out for those who built a good reputation as scholars (was seen as important for being able to govern) or as a moral person (living frugally, helping neighbours, studying a lot) which would make them look good for hiring (then see how they did), if they had an adviser they valued and he had friends or a circle then they would reach out. Meetings could be a good way to make an impression (Deng Ai getting patronage of Sima Yi due to meeting)

- Edit - after reading this, that makes me even less respect on Guan Yu. This implying that he is a type who easily get carried by friendly chat with a person whom he know or close before regardless whether the person was his ally or foe, not to mention he'd forget his duty while this going on. Im sorry i had to say this again, you dont casually chat with a person from enemy nation even if he was your friend.
If i were Guan Yu, i would certainly provoked Xu Huang the way Lu Bu provoked Guo Si into a duel. By shouting: "你表示這些獎勵! 讓我們有個男人對男人的戰鬥,如果你夠勇敢! 讓我們不要讓任何一個人參與其中並自行獲得獎勵!“. If Xu Huang refuse, his men mostly lose morale and also lose significant reputation of him as a warrior among Cao Cao's rank, and i would try to entice some of his men into defecting. And if i were to kill Xu Huang, so be it. Mourn after the battle was over.


Again it happened to others so yes, yes you do in that era. They both carefully avoided crossing a line in discussions and I suspect there were (due to way histories worked) more such conversations we don't hear about since none of three conversations was considered unusual.

Commanders didn't tend to challenge for duels for a reason. If Xu Huang refuses, likely they would just see it as not being reckless.

Back then you said Zhang Yu was objected about Hanzhong campaign, so im trying to give reason that he wasn't.

i was pretty confused about it as well. since both person's bio were written differently. on Zhou Qun's bio, what Zhang Yu said "attack, and you'll suffer a defeat", which i implies he meant the same thing as Zhou Qun said about not sending detachment forces. But on Zhang Yu's bio, it was written he was actually objected on Hanzhong campaign.

His bio did say about Liu Bei sacked him for his wrong prediction on Hanzhong though. So, i think what written on Zhou Qun's bio was true. Zhang Yu wasn't objected, and were meant the same thing about not sending detachment forces, but his choice of word were implying that he objected to the campaign.


The SGZ doesn't say Zhang Yu was sacked? He was killed soon after but for separate reasons. For record De Crespigny's encyclopaedia has Zhang Yu later joined Liu Bei's staff, and in 218 Liu Bei consulted him on his plans to attack Hanzhong. Zhang Yu warned against the idea, but the campaign proved successful. but is possible the wording means that. I can't read Chinese so not best placed to comment

I understand the timing and the fact that Hou Yin's rebellion was shortlived (last only few months). i know it'll take time to muster a forces as well as administration of ration etc. And that Hou Yin would be dead long before Guan Yu arrive.
Since launching a campaign was impossible, would that be better to think about how to gaining allies instead? and quite possibly more soldiers for later campaign? I know its a bit of a gamble, if Cao Ren wouldnt fall for it Hou Yin would die.

Fancheng was emptied, or less guarded, you know, summon available men few hundreds at most to send as a decoy, make as if Guan Yu sending men to attack Fancheng and/or Xiangyang. Since if Cao Ren took the bait, he would rush up back to Fancheng to defend against Guan Yu's attack, buying Hou Yin time to pack up and joined up with Yu. Therefore he gain an allies with him.


That is a daring idea. It wasn't unknown for such raids (Gao Gan tried it on Ye) but is a risk that if Cao Ren dashes back, Guan Yu would be cuaght? It depends how many troops Guan Yu thought was at Fan, what he could summon and he may simply have not felt he could pull it off. Credit for the bold idea
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Re: Guan Yu..your opinion on him

Unread postby Li_Shengsun » Sat Mar 09, 2019 2:29 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:True, I also think I took another line too literally but I thought you were disputing his archery as a warrior achievement? I must have misunderstood, my bad


eh, its my fault though, this is why the reason why people kept misunderstood me. I tend say or type the opposite of what i supposed to meant, cancelling the previous statement what i meant to say.


His army might not collapse in this circumstance so he would be harder to capture. I am frankly useless at geography so I'll take your word on the route

I think he should have shouted Sparta, Wu would have let him go in the confusion :wink: Such small escort retreats are a risk but could be done but if he has the soldiers to fight in Jing ala if the attack is after he has taken Fan, I think he would bunker down and wait for reinforcements.


he was bunkered down when he's got locked on both side wasn't he? and that was really bad. i mean, he has that 30.000 men + Yu Jin following him all around, that really bad for that sizable army to stay on one place like Meicheng fort is, theres no food to be go around. So, best option was to charge through either line for survival while he still has that food he raided, not waiting for reinforcement.

personally, i think this was the weakness Guan Yu has. Zhang Fei for example, when he was cornered, he would think out a way out of that problem, like how he fool the smart Cao Cao at Changban. ZGL would order his men to implement Tuntian system to sustain his army in a long march on Wuzhang.
But, Guan Yu's mind isn't build for that, when Guan Yu presented with such circumstances, he would've retreat, hide from enemy, surrender etc, and not think out any solution of his problem. To me Guan Yu is a type who would trample at everything without proper planning, and would get confused when it doesn't work, then choose the most desperate and bad option to get away, even though those option is the worst option he had.


Sorry, I thought you were asking how we know so and so's are top level warriors. Frankly sometimes all we can do (ala Zhang Fei, Yan Liang) is take their word

In terms of how they spotted talent? For someone like Lu Bu someone of such strength would have got noted in the local area (you probably knew who the strong guy was at school for example), he joins local army (possibly with followers, he seems to have had some education to read and write so may have had enough money for retainers) and gets noticed, climbs up Ding Yuan's ranks during the battles Ding Yuan fought in. He was in position to assassinate Ding Yuan and bring the officers to join Dong Zhuo but being alongside the elite soldiers of the realm, he would have also got noticed. Even during the coalition, the gentry would have had allies in capital who would have spread word of figures they noticed. Lu Bu's skill in battle would have got noticed by friends and ally, word spreads, as a warlord his killing of Ding Yuan+Dong Zhuo gained a certain fame and he had troops which makes him useful for hire. Chen Gong for example would not have, probably, seen Lu Bu in battle before Zhang Miao but Lu Bu was useful timing for him due to soldiers and he would have heard from those who knew people at capital or Yuan Shao that Lu Bu was strong.

In some ways, miliatry people proved talent (once they got started, bringing troops got you a boost up the ranks) or lack of it by fighting. For the civil service? The exam system with probation at the capital "worked" once there was kingdoms again, works less well when provincial warlords.

1) Each local administrator had figures like officers of Merit whose job was to find talent. They would tour around, keep an eye on performances of those around them, keep an ear out and then go to their boss "so and so might be worth a try."

2) Patronage/networking. Some officers like Zhong Yao were famed for discovery of talent and if they came across someone of talent (meetings like Sima Yi and Deng Ai) or spotting someone doing well in their administrative jobs, simply those they come across in their duties of personal life then recommending up the line. On less healthy systems like the Han in it's dying days, powerful gentry figures (the Yuan's were good at this) would push forward their clients who of course would serve their interests in return for the career boost. Scholarship circles, as they would consider their circle intelligent talent and of good character, would tend to promote each other.

Zhuge Liang example was known as one of Sima Hui's circle and as you said, recommend to Liu Bei by a friend Xu Shu.

3) What they looked for: frankly the local gentry they wanted onside for sake of resources, political support and goodwill. :wink: Those willing to join, particularly early days, would get a leg up to encourage others to join. That aside...

Those inside the administration they would look for good advice and good handling of their posts in terms of ability and doing it honestly, those who could bring through talent. They would keep an ear/eye out for those who built a good reputation as scholars (was seen as important for being able to govern) or as a moral person (living frugally, helping neighbours, studying a lot) which would make them look good for hiring (then see how they did), if they had an adviser they valued and he had friends or a circle then they would reach out. Meetings could be a good way to make an impression (Deng Ai getting patronage of Sima Yi due to meeting)


I see.
So, what happen if the hearsay or eye-witnesses was wrong and only just exaggerating it up?


Again it happened to others so yes, yes you do in that era. They both carefully avoided crossing a line in discussions and I suspect there were (due to way histories worked) more such conversations we don't hear about since none of three conversations was considered unusual.

Commanders didn't tend to challenge for duels for a reason. If Xu Huang refuses, likely they would just see it as not being reckless.


I see.

Yes and then wrong. I remembered correctly reading that Xu Huang's men were all fresh recruits and not properly trained yet. So him shouting that rewards for Guan Yu's head was to raise their morale. I mean, he was bringing a large number of men who only know they would get spoils of war, reward etc, just like u ever said to me on the other thread.

So, Xu Huang won't be in any position to refuse here, he'd have to accept, he must accept the challenge, otherwise he'd run a risk of mutiny, a very large number of mutiny that is if Guan Yu played his card right. Thats why i said i would entice his men if he ever refuse the challenge, like saying he was a coward, or join me and get more reward etc etc.
Now the only choices is fall into Guan Yu's hand, would he want to kill his own friend? this question is pretty tricky doesn't it, this would branches off two possible reason whether he was thinking duty above friends or the reverse.

- Edit - The conversation was most likely take place in front of their respective army and not in private. This is what i would usually do when someone named a price for my head, i would retorted the same by saying more reward if they get the person's head that includes the person's army. This would throwing his army in confusion, especially on such circumstances, mostly they would take no part of this nonsense and leave (deserted), some would tempted by the reward i stated and rebelled (mutiny). Whatever reason, they would fought among themselves.


The SGZ doesn't say Zhang Yu was sacked? He was killed soon after but for separate reasons. For record De Crespigny's encyclopaedia has Zhang Yu later joined Liu Bei's staff, and in 218 Liu Bei consulted him on his plans to attack Hanzhong. Zhang Yu warned against the idea, but the campaign proved successful. but is possible the wording means that. I can't read Chinese so not best placed to comment


sorry, i weren't clear what sacked was about. but it does mean the same thing you said. He was killed after the Hanzhong campaign. But for many reasons, it just Liu Bei used this because he really said as if he objecting with the campaign. it did said Liu Bei do bears grudges on him for his mockery and prediction that Bei would lose Hanzhong few years after he taken it.

Well, whatever is that, Zhang Yu was never meant to object with the campaign. because, why would he objected? taking a city to ensure the safety of Yizhou even his own family? objecting, that would meant he was pro-Cao, would rather lose Yizhou to Cao instead to Liu Bei right? and Liu Bei were right in killing him, since he was a mule.


That is a daring idea. It wasn't unknown for such raids (Gao Gan tried it on Ye) but is a risk that if Cao Ren dashes back, Guan Yu would be cuaght? It depends how many troops Guan Yu thought was at Fan, what he could summon and he may simply have not felt he could pull it off. Credit for the bold idea


No, not a raid, but simply making it as if Fancheng was besieged or was attacked. A diversion to say it, simply make Cao Ren's attention to be diverted on Guan Yu's men, buying time for Hou Yin to leave Wan through the river route.
It was did emptied, at least almost, thats why i used the word 'less guarded'. I were meant to say, if you sent men out from Xin Ye and Xu Chang, it'll took less than a month to finish off Hou Yin since he was in the middle of those cities. Heck, it'll took few days if the troop were marched from Xin Ye due to the fact how close proximity it is to Wancheng, for an army of cavalry it is. But, it doesn't. It took Cao Ren to marched out from Fancheng which are pretty far from the place, why is that?

here for example, it only took eight days for Sima Yi to march toward Shangyong without resting from Wancheng. Wan was pretty far from Shangyong is. In fact, it'll take few weeks possibly a months to reach the cities if the army were march normally due to the administrations thing. (distance of Wan to Shangyong is 400li - credit to Meng Da who pointed it out)

My hypothetical reason was, there were no capable leader or much army on both cities. or should i say, less personnel. I can't really prove it, but given the circumstances were happen during Hanzhong campaign was probably the army on Xin Ye and Xu chang were currently sent to engage Liu bei there and couldn't return in time of the rebellion. So if Guan Yu's mind were as flexible as Zhang Fei is, he wouldve think up a plan to scare Cao Ren just to save Hou Yin and his men.

Runner is a man who carrying an urgent message from its sender. They usually riding a horse and marched without resting. They usually carries a rations only enough for few days at most, and will reach the destination as fast as he can. Given how Sima Yi marched with ten of thousands men and reach their destination with just eight days. I think a single runner would reach Guan Yu in a mere few days march.

-Edit- Cao Ren is an experienced general, there is no doubt of it. But he's also a careful man, and wary of Guan Yu's prowess. Even if he heard of the ruse and rushed back, he would holed up on the castle in defense and will never engage Guan Yu in an open fight.
The reason of why Hou Yin is important is because he was an inside men. Whatever information he can relay is very important for Guan Yu's expedition should he survive. Like defense perimeter, supply depot placement, more importantly terrain surrounding the area. Also his skill in battlefield, he has more experience than the peasant revolt from Luhun. The reason Cao Ren massacred him and his men was because he was too dangerous to be left alive.
Last edited by Li_Shengsun on Tue Mar 12, 2019 3:22 am, edited 4 times in total.
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