elitemsh wrote:I agree with Shi Tong in regards to the fact that Guan Yu was not given enough support in Jing by Liu Bei. After all there were many loyal and capable generals that Liu Bei didn't use that much and Guan Yu could have made good use of. I personally wish that Liu Bei had given Guan Yu a dependable subordinate like Zhao Yun. It is not as if Bei used Zhao Yun much in the Han Zhong campaign. Yun proved that he was capable and loyal, he was exactly what Guan Yu needed.
I respect Guan Yu for his performance in Jing. Namely the way that he strengthened the diminished forces left to him by Liu Bei and managed to build a force strong enough to threaten both Wei and Wu. For this action the man deserves some respect.
However, having said that i do not like Guan Yu. He had a major flaw which great generals apparently never obtained. In Zhuge Liang's Way of the General he argues that a general should never be arrogant and belittle others, Guan Yu did this and hence met his premature downfall. Therefore i do not think that Guan Yu could be called a great general.
Bottom line, I respect Guan Yu but I do not like him. I would refer to him as a capable general. Both Guan Yu and Zhang Fei were good generals but because of their major flaws neither of them can be called great.
Shi Tong wrote:Many people here just say that, because Guan Yu wasn't actually a God, they were betrayed by LGZ and therefore they think that Guan Yu was useless, arrogant, idiotic and lost Jing Zhou for Shu.
Shi Tong wrote:However, I feel that if another Shu officer of similar type were to be sent into the same situation as Guan Yu, they may have fallen into the same traps.
Shi Tong wrote:What I mean by this is that Guan Yu was left out to dry in Jing Zhou, left without any decent back up or help, no advisers to speak of and no generals to help him in his military decisions.
Shi Tong wrote:Not only that but he suffered betrayal on all fronts, his own men in Shu (Mi Fang and Fu Shi Ren (is that right? My memory is terrible)), and by those plotting against him in Wu (Lu Meng, Lu Xun and Sun Quan).[/qote]
betrayal that wasn't undeserved. Mi Fang and Fu Shiren had no other choice, Guan Yu made sure of that. Lu Meng, and Sun Quan both tried their hands (Sun Quan sending a marriage invitation that was insulted, Lu Meng offering support at Fan Castle which was threatened), but Guan Yu denied them the chance at friendship. Granted, it can be argued that betrayal was their aim from the start, but that is purely argumentative, as the only evidence we have a traitorous thoughts begin when Sima Yi contacts Sun Quan... after Fan Castle is in trouble.
Guan Yu insulted and belittled himself into a corner, and he paid for it. Any other general who did what he did would be insulted and forgotten as a fool in history. Yet, because it is Guan Yu...Shi Tong wrote:IMO, it was inevitable that someone who was, after all, just a general, and no great thinker, was going to be beaten by such odds, and without any help from any great thinkers in Shu, Guan Yu was left to cope with an impossible situation.
He didn't see it himself, but then, why wasn't there anybody there to help him?!
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