Han Loyalists

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Unread postby Mega Zarak » Tue Oct 22, 2002 5:39 am

Zhou Yu wrote:Who would you consider truely loyal? Other than Huangfu Song, He Jin, and the rest, then no one would classify as loyal.


Liu Yu perhaps. He was related to the Imperial family and was once the Governor of You Zhou. Yuan Shao and gang tried to ask him to replace Liu Xie (Han Xian Di) as the Han Emperor (Liu Yu supposedly enjoyed a great reputation among the people, also noted in Wei Shi Chun Qiu) but Liu Yu rejected them. He said something like a loyal servant should receive and help the child Emperor during the time of chaos and not plot to remove him (taken from Gongsun Zan's SGZ bio with reference to Jiu Zhou Chun Qiu).

As noted in Dian Lue, when Liu Yu was subsequently captured by Gongsun Zan (Liu Yu thought that Gongsun Zan had ulterior motives and was in loggerhead with him), he was tied in the middle of the town to await his impending execution. Gongsun Zan ordered that if Liu Yu was truly pre-destined to be the Emperor, the sky would rain and he would be spared. However, the sky did not rain for days and Liu Yu was executed. Some of his retainers died with him too (noted in Ying Xiong Ji).
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Unread postby Stefanos » Tue Oct 22, 2002 11:53 am

Great Deer wrote:
Zhou Yu wrote:Who would you consider truely loyal? Other than Huangfu Song, He Jin, and the rest, then no one would classify as loyal.


Liu Yu perhaps. He was related to the Imperial family and was once the Governor of You Zhou. Yuan Shao and gang tried to ask him to replace Liu Xie (Han Xian Di) as the Han Emperor (Liu Yu supposedly enjoyed a great reputation among the people, also noted in Wei Shi Chun Qiu) but Liu Yu rejected them. He said something like a loyal servant should receive and help the child Emperor during the time of chaos and not plot to remove him (taken from Gongsun Zan's SGZ bio with reference to Jiu Zhou Chun Qiu).

As noted in Dian Lue, when Liu Yu was subsequently captured by Gongsun Zan (Liu Yu thought that Gongsun Zan had ulterior motives and was in loggerhead with him), he was tied in the middle of the town to await his impending execution. Gongsun Zan ordered that if Liu Yu was truly pre-destined to be the Emperor, the sky would rain and he would be spared. However, the sky did not rain for days and Liu Yu was executed. Some of his retainers died with him too (noted in Ying Xiong Ji).


So Liu Yu is the only one, eh? Though I am unfamiliar with Liu Yu, I can say that he *could* have had hidden ambitions, as did Cao Cao. Cao Cao never lived long enough to become emperor. Liu Yu is similar, he didnt live long enough to do anything significant, other than win popular support.
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Unread postby Mega Zarak » Tue Oct 22, 2002 2:26 pm

Zhou Yu wrote:So Liu Yu is the only one, eh? Though I am unfamiliar with Liu Yu, I can say that he *could* have had hidden ambitions, as did Cao Cao. Cao Cao never lived long enough to become emperor. Liu Yu is similar, he didnt live long enough to do anything significant, other than win popular support.


Did I say that he was the only one? Anyway, Liu Yu's loyalty was justified by various historical sources (or rather by various historians). I wouldn't dare say he was 100% loyal to Han but at least his actions from the beginning till the end did not show that he had rebelled against Han. Sun Jian, on the other hand, shown clearly through his actions that he had ulterior motives.

Also, I would like to hear your justifications that Liu Yu had hidden ambitions. A singular claim like that is not convincing enough. :D
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Unread postby Stefanos » Tue Oct 22, 2002 7:33 pm

Great Deer wrote:
Zhou Yu wrote:So Liu Yu is the only one, eh? Though I am unfamiliar with Liu Yu, I can say that he *could* have had hidden ambitions, as did Cao Cao. Cao Cao never lived long enough to become emperor. Liu Yu is similar, he didnt live long enough to do anything significant, other than win popular support.


Did I say that he was the only one? Anyway, Liu Yu's loyalty was justified by various historical sources (or rather by various historians). I wouldn't dare say he was 100% loyal to Han but at least his actions from the beginning till the end did not show that he had rebelled against Han. Sun Jian, on the other hand, shown clearly through his actions that he had ulterior motives.

Also, I would like to hear your justifications that Liu Yu had hidden ambitions. A singular claim like that is not convincing enough. :D


As I mentioned before, he *could* have. Since it was only proper to decline three times before excepting, the rule could have applied to Liu Yu. A quote from Yuan Shao's SGZ Bio says...
At the same time, together with the Protector of Yi Zhou, Han Fu, Yuan Shao decided to elect Liu Yu as the new Han Emperor. However, Liu Yu rejected their proposal.


Here, the event is only described vaguely. It shows that Liu Yu was requested once, and refused. In most cases, the author would completely describe the propoal rejection, since it would be a very important event.

One more thing... Did you read Gongsun Zans Biography in English? If so, can you direct me towards it?[/quote]
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Unread postby Mega Zarak » Wed Oct 23, 2002 3:36 am

Zhou Yu wrote:As I mentioned before, he *could* have. Since it was only proper to decline three times before excepting, the rule could have applied to Liu Yu. A quote from Yuan Shao's SGZ Bio says...
At the same time, together with the Protector of Yi Zhou, Han Fu, Yuan Shao decided to elect Liu Yu as the new Han Emperor. However, Liu Yu rejected their proposal.


Here, the event is only described vaguely. It shows that Liu Yu was requested once, and refused. In most cases, the author would completely describe the propoal rejection, since it would be a very important event.

One more thing... Did you read Gongsun Zans Biography in English? If so, can you direct me towards it?


Rejecting thrice was only for show and not a requirement. Furthermore, besides Yuan Shao, people like Han Fu, Yuan Shu, etc. had made their requests to him and it was obvious that those requests were not made concurrently. Also, instead of showing concrete points to support your claim that Liu Yu had been disloyal to Han, you have jumped to a quick conclusion based on some speculations. In any case, I think Liu Yu had a far better case compared to Sun Jian in terms of loyalty to Han.

Btw, the references that I used are taken from www.guoxue.com (as posted in the thread on useful RTK links). Unfortunately, the site hosted all the bios in Chinese. Perhaps you can seek a second opinion from other members who are fluent in Chinese. It's best to do so as I can make mistakes too! :D
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Unread postby Stefanos » Wed Oct 23, 2002 11:47 am

Great Deer wrote:Rejecting thrice was only for show and not a requirement. Furthermore, besides Yuan Shao, people like Han Fu, Yuan Shu, etc. had made their requests to him and it was obvious that those requests were not made concurrently. Also, instead of showing concrete points to support your claim that Liu Yu had been disloyal to Han, you have jumped to a quick conclusion based on some speculations. In any case, I think Liu Yu had a far better case compared to Sun Jian in terms of loyalty to Han.

Btw, the references that I used are taken from www.guoxue.com (as posted in the thread on useful RTK links). Unfortunately, the site hosted all the bios in Chinese. Perhaps you can seek a second opinion from other members who are fluent in Chinese. It's best to do so as I can make mistakes too! :D


Bleh, I need to learn Chinese :cry: Anyway, I never said Liu Yu was more loyal than Sun Jian, Im saying that everyone was disloyal at some time(even Zhang Ren, whom so many people think was the perfect example of a loyal follower).
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Unread postby Jimayo » Wed Oct 23, 2002 12:00 pm

Zhou Yu wrote:Bleh, I need to learn Chinese :cry: Anyway, I never said Liu Yu was more loyal than Sun Jian, Im saying that everyone was disloyal at some time(even Zhang Ren, whom so many people think was the perfect example of a loyal follower).


Yes but we are not debating their loyalty to their liege. We are debating their loyalty to the han.
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Unread postby Stefanos » Wed Oct 23, 2002 12:09 pm

Jimayo Oyamitch wrote:
Zhou Yu wrote:Bleh, I need to learn Chinese :cry: Anyway, I never said Liu Yu was more loyal than Sun Jian, Im saying that everyone was disloyal at some time(even Zhang Ren, whom so many people think was the perfect example of a loyal follower).


Yes but we are not debating their loyalty to their liege. We are debating their loyalty to the han.


Whats the difference? Zhang Ren serving Liu Zhang is equivalent to someone like Yuan Shao serving Emperor Xian.
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Unread postby Jimayo » Wed Oct 23, 2002 12:18 pm

Zhou Yu wrote:Whats the difference? Zhang Ren serving Liu Zhang is equivalent to someone like Yuan Shao serving Emperor Xian.


The difference is it's easier to hold loyalty to a man who has power(liu zhang actually ruled in shu) than a man with none(first Dong Zhuo, then Li Jue, then Cao Cao made all the decisions for Xian).
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Unread postby Xiao He » Sun Oct 27, 2002 2:40 am

Zhou Yu wrote:
Lady Wu wrote:I'm not going to say anything about Liu Bei (*looks around for angry Shu people with stones*), but one man who was really loyal to Han was Xun Yu -- he tried to prevent Cao Cao from usurping, even if it meant that he himself would be killed.


Dont worry, I like Shu, but to a certain extent. Yes, Xun Yu was very loyal, but werent his attempts in vain? Han was a rotting carcas at that time and there was no way any one person couldve stopped the inevitable.


The Han government was very strong since it was reformed a lot by Xun Yu while Cao Cao was out on expedition. Cao Cao spent nearly 7 years in the North while Xun Yu was left in the capital. Much of the strong foundation of Wei came from the excellent management of the Han by Xun Yu.
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