Han Loyalists

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Unread postby Mega Zarak » Mon Oct 21, 2002 11:49 am

Zhou Gongjin wrote:The Emperor was a powerless child. Need I elaborate?

If you're loyal to Han, you'll need to be loyal to the Emperor irregardless of who he was. Kang Xi of Qing dynasty came to the throne at a young age too. However, he wasn't short of loyal subjects.
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Unread postby Stefanos » Mon Oct 21, 2002 12:00 pm

Zhou Gongjin wrote:
Jimayo Oyamitch wrote:
Jiang Zhi wrote:Sun Jian kept the Imperial Seal because he didn't want it to go to the wrong hands......


So what, returning it to the emperor is the wrong hands? It's not like he didn't know who it belonged to.


The Emperor was a powerless child. Need I elaborate?


I agree. Since Sun Jian didnt have the Emperor under his control, someone else, *hint Cao Cao/Yuan Shu hint*, would run in and declare themselves Emperor. I think he kept the Seal as a form of insurance, so he could also rise up and make an attempt to unify China. I *think* the book and history say that with the Imperial Seal, certain people would "flock" to the banner of the holder. Im guessing that these people would not be loyalist, but would want to have their ruler become the emperor. You could almost consider the Seal as a hidden power?
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Unread postby Mega Zarak » Mon Oct 21, 2002 12:09 pm

Zhou Yu wrote:I agree. Since Sun Jian didnt have the Emperor under his control, someone else, *hint Cao Cao/Yuan Shu hint*, would run in and declare themselves Emperor. I think he kept the Seal as a form of insurance, so he could also rise up and make an attempt to unify China. I *think* the book and history say that with the Imperial Seal, certain people would "flock" to the banner of the holder. Im guessing that these people would not be loyalist, but would want to have their ruler become the emperor. You could almost consider the Seal as a hidden power?


Was there any mention that Sun Jian actually intended to unite China under Han? Or was that merely a speculation from his die-hard fans? :roll:
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Unread postby Stefanos » Mon Oct 21, 2002 12:17 pm

Great Deer wrote:
Zhou Yu wrote:I agree. Since Sun Jian didnt have the Emperor under his control, someone else, *hint Cao Cao/Yuan Shu hint*, would run in and declare themselves Emperor. I think he kept the Seal as a form of insurance, so he could also rise up and make an attempt to unify China. I *think* the book and history say that with the Imperial Seal, certain people would "flock" to the banner of the holder. Im guessing that these people would not be loyalist, but would want to have their ruler become the emperor. You could almost consider the Seal as a hidden power?


Was there any mention that Sun Jian actually intended to unite China under Han? Or was that merely a speculation from his die-hard fans? :roll:


Was there any mention that Cao Cao or Liu Bei intended to unify China during the coalition? No... Sun Jian is the only one that you can almost deduct his intentions from what you read. Cao Cao was out to increase his status, and Liu Bei wanted to be the peoples favorite.
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Unread postby Mega Zarak » Mon Oct 21, 2002 1:16 pm

Zhou Yu wrote:Was there any mention that Cao Cao or Liu Bei intended to unify China during the coalition?

I didn't say anything about Cao or Liu did I? Both of them were outright traitors according to my own personal perspectives. :D

Zhou Yu wrote:No... Sun Jian is the only one that you can almost deduct his intentions from what you read.

Like what??

SGYY => Left the Emperor and his court and went south after recovering the Seal? Open discussion about self-expansionism with Cheng Pu?

Historical Perspectives => Killing of Han court officials with no good reasons while on his way to join Yuan Shu in the coalition? Attempt to take Jing Zhou under his own banner leveraging on the mess that Han was in??

Please state your points and not just make empty deductions. :D
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Unread postby Stefanos » Mon Oct 21, 2002 11:02 pm

Great Deer wrote:
Zhou Yu wrote:Was there any mention that Cao Cao or Liu Bei intended to unify China during the coalition?

I didn't say anything about Cao or Liu did I? Both of them were outright traitors according to my own personal perspectives. :D


Who would you consider truely loyal? Other than Huangfu Song, He Jin, and the rest, then no one would classify as loyal.
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Unread postby Cao Ren » Mon Oct 21, 2002 11:05 pm

i say almost all men(except dong zhou) were loyal to han during the yellow turbans. Sun jian seemed loyal and sodid cao cao. Liu Bei was portrayed as being loyal but i just bet he wanted a job in the government
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Unread postby Jeffro » Tue Oct 22, 2002 1:02 am

Zhou Yu wrote:
Who would you consider truely loyal? Other than Huangfu Song, He Jin, and the rest, then no one would classify as loyal.


Loyal yes, but it is He Jin that brought the downfall of the Han- destroying the point of his being loyal. It is difficult to say if Liu Bei is disloyal- I need to recheck the book, but didn't he only declare himself emporer after Cao Pi had emperor Xian abdicate the throne?
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Unread postby Jimayo » Tue Oct 22, 2002 1:53 am

Jeffro wrote:Loyal yes, but it is He Jin that brought the downfall of the Han- destroying the point of his being loyal. It is difficult to say if Liu Bei is disloyal- I need to recheck the book, but didn't he only declare himself emporer after Cao Pi had emperor Xian abdicate the throne?


Yes but if you look at things from a historical perspective his loyalty is questionable. I've heard he even sent assassins to kill Xian after he abdicated(Xian wasn't killed by Cao Pi, he lived on for years as a duke there).
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Unread postby Jeffro » Tue Oct 22, 2002 2:47 am

Jimayo Oyamitch wrote:Yes but if you look at things from a historical perspective his loyalty is questionable. I've heard he even sent assassins to kill Xian after he abdicated(Xian wasn't killed by Cao Pi, he lived on for years as a duke there).


Hehehe, I can't really argue because I am only really familiar with SGYY. It is likely, if you are correct, that Cao pi kept Xian alive in history merely as a ploy for popular support, and its likely that Liu Bei meant to kill him to ensure that there wouldn't be any resistance to his attempted restoration of the han empire. Is that disloyal to Xian? Definitley, however, Xian lost any hope of ever being an effective leader when Li Jue and Guo Si invaded the capital. Just speculation though, its very likely that you are correct seeing as how I don't have too much real knowledge of the history.
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