Han Loyalists

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Unread postby James » Tue Oct 08, 2002 7:22 am

Zhou Gongjin wrote:
Zhuge Kongming wrote:His designs for the Imperial Seal are highly debatable.

Isn't this a debate forum? Doesn't everyone have their own view?

Very well. He made no effort to return the seal to anybody. Even people like Liu Biao. I think the only way it would have returned is if the emperor himself had come up to him and asked for it, and he did not make an effort to meet the emperor for this purpose or leave the seal in the hands of someone that was striving to do just that.

Basically, I think the logical conclusion is that he was keeping it for a reason.

Also, in relation to some other posts. I am not trying to put Sun Jian down as a leader. I think he was a wonderful fellow, truly exceptional. I just don't think he was a loyal servant of the Han.
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Unread postby Lu Xun » Tue Oct 08, 2002 7:29 am

I believe that Sun Jian knew that Cao, Yuan Shao, and company viewed him as a potential threat because of his leadership and military skills. The Imperial Seal was a way for him to keep his head above the water so to speak. As long as he had what Cao and Shao desired, he believed he was still a part of the game.

Fearing that the "Tiger in the South" would gain much power and start his own hegemony, which happened anyway, those who sought power wanted this tiger out of the picture. Liu Biao was the man who ended up doing so. The Imperial Seal, while keeping Sun Jian somewhat safe and powerful, also made him a marked man.

Sun Jian obviously had his own motives and wanted to gather power himself, but I wouldn't dare to compare him to the Yuans and Dong Zhuo. Sun Jian saw the Han colapsing and wanted to assemble a force. Now, if that force was to support the Han and protect the child Emperor (which seems more likely given previous action), or whether he wanted to stake a claim to the land, we do not know.

As interpreted from what we have read in SGYY, Sun Jian was loyal, but he wasn't a fool. He knew that the Han was failing and wanted to secure himself. He never did any disloyal act, but he also had survival on his mind. Very smart if you ask me, and we'd probably do the same in his position.
Last edited by Lu Xun on Tue Oct 08, 2002 7:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Unread postby Jimayo » Tue Oct 08, 2002 7:31 am

Zhang Ren wrote:I am start wondering does anyone during early RTK period really does loyal to the Han. Just look at the Liu royal for instant, Liu Biao was content with being ruler of JingZhou that he didn't even care who control the capital or the Emperor. Liu Yan trying to start his own ambition in the south and never really care about the politic in the central plain. After Liu Yan pass away and Liu Zhang took controlled of YiZhou, he even lend support to Cao Cao to fight against Wu and Liu Bei at ChiBi. Now could anyone seriously asking mere servants like Cao Cao, Sun Jian/Sun Ce, Yuan Shao, Yuan Shu, Dong Zhou to be loyal and fully served the Han when even some of the close Han kinsmen like Liu Biao, Liu Yan/Liu Zhang, Liu Yao and ect didn't even care?


Personally, I don't think any of them were.
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Unread postby James » Tue Oct 08, 2002 7:53 am

Jimayo Oyamitch wrote:Personally, I don't think any of them were.

Neither do I. Sure, some of them were more loyal than others, but in the end they were out to attain their own designs. I can't blame them either, the Han was done for.
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Unread postby Zhou Gongjin » Sun Oct 20, 2002 5:03 pm

*cries* 3 pages of quality debate shot to hell
*shoots at Great Deer* come back here :D

Where did we leave off? I have no idea
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Unread postby Zhou Tai » Sun Oct 20, 2002 8:46 pm

Wasnt It Said That Liu Biao had many chances to conquer the land but he stayed in one place. The Han seemed to be a terrible dynasty all togeather no wonder the yellow turbans assembled, but was it such a bad thing.....
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Unread postby Jiang Zhi » Sun Oct 20, 2002 9:24 pm

Sun Jian kept the Imperial Seal because he didn't want it to go to the wrong hands......
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Unread postby Cao Ren » Sun Oct 20, 2002 9:27 pm

i think sun jian kept the seal because of his own interests, he wanted to be king and expand his forces to take china for himself. he was loyal in the days like the ywllow turbans but was looking out for himself when he took the seal and left yuan shao's group.
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Unread postby Jimayo » Mon Oct 21, 2002 1:55 am

Jiang Zhi wrote:Sun Jian kept the Imperial Seal because he didn't want it to go to the wrong hands......


So what, returning it to the emperor is the wrong hands? It's not like he didn't know who it belonged to.
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Unread postby Zhou Gongjin » Mon Oct 21, 2002 11:07 am

Jimayo Oyamitch wrote:
Jiang Zhi wrote:Sun Jian kept the Imperial Seal because he didn't want it to go to the wrong hands......


So what, returning it to the emperor is the wrong hands? It's not like he didn't know who it belonged to.


The Emperor was a powerless child. Need I elaborate?
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