Han Loyalists

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Unread postby Mega Zarak » Mon Oct 07, 2002 5:04 am

Zhou Gongjin wrote:
Jimayo Oyamitch wrote:
Zhou Gongjin wrote:Cao Cao kidnapped the Emperor after failing to eliminated the Han rebels. Liu Bei only had a few small victories that were attributed to others, Dong Zhuo was a failure and betrayed the Han by killing the Emperor.


And when did Sun Jian uphold the Han?


When he led the van against Dong Zhuo, killed Hua Xiong. And before that killed others in the south who defied the Emperor.


So you're talking about history?? :D Well, Sun Jian killed the Grand Administrator of Nan Yang, Zhang Zhi and the Inspector of Jing Zhou, Wang Rui, for no good reasons other than to acquire their lands or resources for his army. (note that Zhang Zhi and Wang Rui were Han officials). If that's what is meant by loyalty or upholding the Han, then I guess anyone, even the Yellow Turban would qualify! :lol: Hence, to say that Sun Jian was loyal because he joined the coalition would only amount to analysing his loyalty based on a single side of the coin. In addition, besides looking at things from the pro-Sun perspective, if one bothers to look at it from other perspectives, I guess it's easy to derive other valid reasons pertaining to why Sun Jian rejected Dong Zhuo's offer. :wink:

In reply to Sun Jian displaying the so-called "loyalty" by killing pirates when he was 17, all I can say is that Cao Cao, Liu Bei, Yuan Shao and many others had their parts in killing of people who broke the laws and were wanted by the Han court. However, I won't term those warlords as loyal Han subjects just because of that.

IMO, it's fair to say that Sun Jian was courageous, good in military, etc. but to say that he was a loyal Han subject (both novel or in history) would be a rather biased statement. :D
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Unread postby Zhang Ren » Mon Oct 07, 2002 6:49 am

Great Deer wrote:So you're talking about history?? :D Well, Sun Jian killed the Grand Administrator of Nan Yang, Zhang Zhi and the Inspector of Jing Zhou, Wang Rui, for no good reasons other than to acquire their lands or resources for his army. (note that Zhang Zhi and Wang Rui were Han officials). If that's what is meant by loyalty or upholding the Han, then I guess anyone, even the Yellow Turban would qualify! :lol: Hence, to say that Sun Jian was loyal because he joined the coalition would only amount to analysing his loyalty based on a single side of the coin. In addition, besides looking at things from the pro-Sun perspective, if one bothers to look at it from other perspectives, I guess it's easy to derive other valid reasons pertaining to why Sun Jian rejected Dong Zhuo's offer. :wink:


:lol: Sun Jian was tricked into killing Zhang Zhi, however, it seem that he benifit greatly by been tricked (all of Zhang Zhi's troops was place under his command). Killing Wang Rui because he was insulted. Beside, Sun Jian was a low ranked officer of Han and he don't even belong to any strong Gentry family, I doubt he would dare to do such a thing if he does not have the backing of one of the three Duke (San Gong).
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Unread postby Mega Zarak » Mon Oct 07, 2002 7:59 am

Zhang Ren wrote: :lol: Sun Jian was tricked into killing Zhang Zhi, however, it seem that he benifit greatly by been tricked (all of Zhang Zhi's troops was place under his command).

This account was stated differently in the Historical Records of Wu or Wu Li. Anyway, if we stick to what's avaiable in SGZ, Zhang Zhi was scared of Sun Jian because of his bad reputation (going by how he killed Wang Rui for no reason). This resulted in his subsequent actions which led to Sun Jian killing him. Also, by killing the Grand Administrator, it made things easier for Sun Jian when he made demands to neighbouring commanderies to give him army supplies (I did not make this up, it is clearly stated in Sun Jian's main bio). This is nothing but the act of a bandit. :D

Zhang Ren wrote:Killing Wang Rui because he was insulted. Beside, Sun Jian was a low ranked officer of Han and he don't even belong to any strong Gentry family, I doubt he would dare to do such a thing if he does not have the backing of one of the three Duke (San Gong).


This shows that Sun Jian behaved pretty much like those ruffians/bullies in the Water Margin series! hahaha.. :lol: Maybe we should start questioning his ethics before even making the claim that he was a Han loyalist. :D
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Unread postby Kitsune413 » Mon Oct 07, 2002 8:24 am

Zhou Yu wrote:
Lady Wu wrote:I'm not going to say anything about Liu Bei (*looks around for angry Shu people with stones*), but one man who was really loyal to Han was Xun Yu -- he tried to prevent Cao Cao from usurping, even if it meant that he himself would be killed.


Dont worry, I like Shu, but to a certain extent. Yes, Xun Yu was very loyal, but werent his attempts in vain? Han was a rotting carcas at that time and there was no way any one person couldve stopped the inevitable.


Didn't Xun Yu commit Suicide or die of depression because his attempts to get Cao Cao to be loyal failed?

Also, Xun Yu is very cute in Kessen 2... ¬_¬ kind of a disturbing thing to say, but I'd like to see more of the imposter female Xun Yu in future Koei games.
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Unread postby Zhang Ren » Mon Oct 07, 2002 10:04 am

Great Deer wrote:This shows that Sun Jian behaved pretty much like those ruffians/bullies in the Water Margin series! hahaha.. :lol: Maybe we should start questioning his ethics before even making the claim that he was a Han loyalist. :D


When did I stated that Sun Jian was loyal to Han? :roll:
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Unread postby Mega Zarak » Mon Oct 07, 2002 11:37 am

Zhang Ren wrote:
Great Deer wrote:This shows that Sun Jian behaved pretty much like those ruffians/bullies in the Water Margin series! hahaha.. :lol: Maybe we should start questioning his ethics before even making the claim that he was a Han loyalist. :D


When did I stated that Sun Jian was loyal to Han? :roll:


hehehe..you didn't but you joined in his defence. :lol: (It was first brought up by a Wu-extremist called Han Xin in his earlier post about Wu's generosity way before he mysteriously retired! :lol: For this thread, it was first mentioned by Zhou Gongjin )
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Unread postby Zhou Gongjin » Mon Oct 07, 2002 5:44 pm

Great Deer wrote: If that's what is meant by loyalty or upholding the Han, then I guess anyone, even the Yellow Turban would qualify! :lol:


The first part of the Yellow Turbans were honest people who wanted to relieve suffering. The later rebels were rapists, pillagers and rampant murders, you don't have to profane Sun Jian by comparing them to him.

Great Deer wrote: Hence, to say that Sun Jian was loyal because he joined the coalition would only amount to analysing his loyalty based on a single side of the coin. In addition, besides looking at things from the pro-Sun perspective, if one bothers to look at it from other perspectives, I guess it's easy to derive other valid reasons pertaining to why Sun Jian rejected Dong Zhuo's offer. :wink:


And who are you to tell me what Sun Jian was thinking?

Great Deer wrote: In reply to Sun Jian displaying the so-called "loyalty" by killing pirates when he was 17, all I can say is that Cao Cao, Liu Bei, Yuan Shao and many others had their parts in killing of people who broke the laws and were wanted by the Han court. However, I won't term those warlords as loyal Han subjects just because of that.


Weren't they Han laws?

Great Deer wrote:IMO, it's fair to say that Sun Jian was courageous, good in military, etc. but to say that he was a loyal Han subject (both novel or in history) would be a rather biased statement. :D


I take offense in that remark. :|
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Unread postby Stefanos » Tue Oct 08, 2002 12:07 am

I wouldnt go far as to say Wu was truely loyal, but its loyalty ended with Sun Jian's death. Sun Ce and Sun Quan both made no mention of upholding the Han. Their real objective was to avenge their father.
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Re: whoa..

Unread postby Jimayo » Tue Oct 08, 2002 2:08 am

Warlord Lu Xun wrote:Thank you Mitsunari, and Zhou Yu, I also agree with you. Sun Jian had it going, and it was a shame that he wasnt around a little longer(All deaths in Wu are a shame), but I am glad someone agrees with me, it's a first time :wink:


guys, we're not dissing him. He was a talented leader. Very much so. We're just saying he wasn't loyal to the Han.
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Unread postby Mega Zarak » Tue Oct 08, 2002 3:27 am

Zhou Gongjin wrote:The first part of the Yellow Turbans were honest people who wanted to relieve suffering. The later rebels were rapists, pillagers and rampant murders, you don't have to profane Sun Jian by comparing them to him.

That's nothing wrong with the comparison. Sun Jian killed the Grand Administrator and Inspector of the Province for no good reasons. Are those loyal acts or acts of bandits??

Zhou Gongjin wrote:And who are you to tell me what Sun Jian was thinking?

hahaha...of cos I don't know what he's thinking. However, it's easy to think from other perspectives, other than the pro-Sun one, and come up with reasons why Sun Jian rejected Dong Zhuo's request. However, I would be satisfied if the statement goes "Sun Jian is a Han loyalist provided we look at things from one side of the coin". :lol:

Zhou Gongjin wrote:Weren't they Han laws?

Yes. So?

Zhou Gongjin wrote:I take offense in that remark. :|

:lol: I don't deem that remark as that offensive to the extent that a veteran like you should take it personally. In my posts, I'm merely addressing the statements that you made and in no way am I addressing your character. Anyway, I apologise if the signals that my posts sent went in the wrong, unintended directions. However, perhaps you can take a look at the responses from Mitsunari Ishida and Warlord Lu Xun to my posts. They aren't the least bit friendly too! :D

To people who rejected my claim that Sun Jian was not loyal, I would appreciate it if you can come up with you own counter-points and justify the points that I've mentioned. Mitsunari Ishida, those points I've taken are translated directly from the official historical records and they are certainly not made up. If you don't trust my translations, perhaps you can ask Lady Wu to counter check them. (she supports Wu you know! :wink:) Also, like Jimayo has mentioned, we're not dissing him for the fun of it and in no way have I criticised Sun Jian's ability to lead his troops.
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