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Han Loyalists

Unread postPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2002 4:18 am
by Stefanos
As you all *should* know, during the Hans most critical moment, many loyal followers rose up to quell the rebellions. The upholders of the Han were few, and mostly weak and without any means of purging the rebels from China.

Personally, I find the loyalists weak and pitiful, and they should have given up before they started. During Dong Zhuo's time, he put a child on the imperial seat and made a puppet out of him. The mandate of the Han was almost completely gone by this time.

One such example is Liu Bei, loyalist or traitor? What are your thoughts?

Unread postPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2002 4:21 am
by Lady Wu
I'm not going to say anything about Liu Bei (*looks around for angry Shu people with stones*), but one man who was really loyal to Han was Xun Yu -- he tried to prevent Cao Cao from usurping, even if it meant that he himself would be killed.

Unread postPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2002 4:28 am
by Stefanos
Lady Wu wrote:I'm not going to say anything about Liu Bei (*looks around for angry Shu people with stones*), but one man who was really loyal to Han was Xun Yu -- he tried to prevent Cao Cao from usurping, even if it meant that he himself would be killed.


Dont worry, I like Shu, but to a certain extent. Yes, Xun Yu was very loyal, but werent his attempts in vain? Han was a rotting carcas at that time and there was no way any one person couldve stopped the inevitable.

Unread postPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2002 5:41 am
by Jimayo
Cao Cao could have.

Unread postPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2002 4:28 pm
by Chen Kun
Lady Wu wrote:I'm not going to say anything about Liu Bei (*looks around for angry Shu people with stones*), but one man who was really loyal to Han was Xun Yu -- he tried to prevent Cao Cao from usurping, even if it meant that he himself would be killed.

(Chen Kun hides his stone quickly) :twisted:
Xun Yu was too naive if he think that Cao Cao was a loyalist. :(

Unread postPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2002 4:36 pm
by Zhou Gongjin
Hmm I never saw Xun Yu as a real loyalist.
Anyways, Liu Bei was not loyal because he used his fake ties to the Han to manipulate the child Emperor, claim land that wasn't his, and later usurp to become Emperor himself.
Sun Jian rendered great service to the Han and I have no reason to doubt his loyalty to the Han.

Unread postPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2002 4:38 pm
by Mega Zarak
Zhou Gongjin wrote:Sun Jian rendered great service to the Han and I have no reason to doubt his loyalty to the Han.


I guess you must be talking about the novel perspective cos that guy was in no way a loyal Han servant in history.

Even in the novel, Sun Jian kept the Jade Seal with intention of setting up his own base in the south.

Unread postPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2002 4:56 pm
by Chen Kun
Great Deer wrote:
Zhou Gongjin wrote:Sun Jian rendered great service to the Han and I have no reason to doubt his loyalty to the Han.


I guess you must be talking about the novel perspective cos that guy was in no way a loyal Han servant in history.

Even in the novel, Sun Jian kept the Jade Seal with intention of setting up his own base in the south.

yeah Sun Jian wanted to keep Han for himself :x

Unread postPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2002 5:32 pm
by Mitsunari Ishida
Chen Kun wrote:
Great Deer wrote:
Zhou Gongjin wrote:Sun Jian rendered great service to the Han and I have no reason to doubt his loyalty to the Han.


I guess you must be talking about the novel perspective cos that guy was in no way a loyal Han servant in history.

Even in the novel, Sun Jian kept the Jade Seal with intention of setting up his own base in the south.

yeah Sun Jian wanted to keep Han for himself :x


I do not see anything wrong with that, I should imagine Sun Jian being a much better leader than anyone involved in the Han was. And I think Han loyalist like Lu Zhi, Haungfu Song, Zhu Jun and He Jin were good at holding up the Han in its time, the downside was, that they were all to old and died not long after the short time of piece after the Yellow Turbans., thats when Dong Zhou who had helped remove the Yellow Turbans rose to power.

Unread postPosted: Sun Oct 06, 2002 5:46 pm
by Zhou Gongjin
Great Deer wrote:
I guess you must be talking about the novel perspective cos that guy was in no way a loyal Han servant in history.

Even in the novel, Sun Jian kept the Jade Seal with intention of setting up his own base in the south.


I recall a 17 year old Sun Jian killing pirates, and later killing more rebels on the Emperor's orders.

Chen Kun wrote:
yeah Sun Jian wanted to keep Han for himself :x


Now what the hell is that supposed to mean?