Han Loyalists

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Unread postby Zhou Gongjin » Tue Oct 08, 2002 6:33 am

Great Deer wrote:That's nothing wrong with the comparison. Sun Jian killed the Grand Administrator and Inspector of the Province for no good reasons. Are those loyal acts or acts of bandits??


Competition between officers of the Han is nothing new. The founder of the Han, the supreme ancestor, killed a whole lot of people in order to boost his career. I'm sure Sun Jian had his reasons, and like everyone else he had personal enemies.
Where does it say that Sun Jian was raiding towns, burning houses and profaning the Han? Nowhere.

Great Deer wrote:hahaha...of cos I don't know what he's thinking. However, it's easy to think from other perspectives, other than the pro-Sun one, and come up with reasons why Sun Jian rejected Dong Zhuo's request. However, I would be satisfied if the statement goes "Sun Jian is a Han loyalist provided we look at things from one side of the coin". :lol:


Well there's no need to always look on the negative side. Dong Zhuo's offer could be lucrative. Lu Bu and Sun Jian would easily best Cao Cao and Yuan Shao. The novel specifically mentioned Sun Jian's feeling about rebels like Dong Zhuo and the Yellow Turbans, and he fought hard to destroy them, didn't he?

Great Deer wrote:Yes. So?


Didn't he uphold the Han then?

Great Deer wrote: :lol: I don't deem that remark as that offensive to the extent that a veteran like you should take it personally. In my posts, I'm merely addressing the statements that you made and in no way am I addressing your character. Anyway, I apologise if the signals that my posts sent went in the wrong, unintended directions.


I don't like being called biased, that's all.
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Unread postby Jimayo » Tue Oct 08, 2002 6:42 am

Zhou Gongjin wrote:I don't like being called biased, that's all.


But you are. Very much so. Admit it to yourself and get over it. It's not that big of a deal.
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Unread postby James » Tue Oct 08, 2002 6:44 am

Zhou Gongjin wrote:
Great Deer wrote:IMO, it's fair to say that Sun Jian was courageous, good in military, etc. but to say that he was a loyal Han subject (both novel or in history) would be a rather biased statement. :D

I take offense in that remark. :|

Why? He wasn't loyal to the Han.
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Unread postby Zhou Gongjin » Tue Oct 08, 2002 6:47 am

Jimayo Oyamitch wrote:But you are. Very much so. Admit it to yourself and get over it. It's not that big of a deal.


I see it as admitting that one party is just a little more right than the others.
Also it wouldn't be good for me to be biased since my work for KMA should be neutral.

Zhuge Kongming wrote:Why? He wasn't loyal to the Han.


He died protecting the Emperor's seal, which he wanted to keep away from wolves like Yuan and Cao. He was a brave general who continuously fought Han rebels at the risk of losing his own life.
Who are you to say he was not loyal?
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Unread postby James » Tue Oct 08, 2002 6:54 am

Warlord Lu Xun wrote:I agree ( I am an extreme Wuist )...and way to rip Great Deer apart.....woo

Mitsunari Ishida wrote:I agree with all of that, I am fed up of people trying to make Wu look bad by making something out of nothing.

Warlord Lu Xun wrote:If that's what is meant by loyalty or upholding the Han, then I guess anyone, even the Yellow Turban would qualify! :lol: Thank you Mitsunari, and Zhou Yu, I also agree with you. Sun Jian had it going, and it was a shame that he wasnt around a little longer(All deaths in Wu are a shame), but I am glad someone agrees with me, it's a first time

I am going to be very blunt with the two of you. It is fine to be a “Wuist” and if you want to favor a certain kingdom in your discussion more power too you. However, when you don’t know enough about the topic at hand to contribute something of value, but instead choose to post crap like this and simply claim that Wu is great, I am going to mark you down for a spam warning. Review the forum rules to see the relevance of this.

Please treat members here with great respect or do not use their names at all. And in the future, please make sure you posts anywhere in the Academy Garden (the top forums) have something meaningful to contribute to the topic at hand. This is a warning.
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Unread postby James » Tue Oct 08, 2002 6:56 am

Zhou Gongjin wrote:He died protecting the Emperor's seal, which he wanted to keep away from wolves like Yuan and Cao. He was a brave general who continuously fought Han rebels at the risk of losing his own life.
Who are you to say he was not loyal?

His designs for the Imperial Seal are highly debatable.
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Unread postby Zhou Gongjin » Tue Oct 08, 2002 6:59 am

Zhuge Kongming wrote:His designs for the Imperial Seal are highly debatable.


Isn't this a debate forum? Doesn't everyone have their own view?
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Unread postby Jimayo » Tue Oct 08, 2002 7:14 am

Zhou Gongjin wrote:I see it as admitting that one party is just a little more right than the others.
Also it wouldn't be good for me to be biased since my work for KMA should be neutral.


Impossible, no person is truly neutral. Everyone has opinions.

Zhou Gongjin wrote:He died protecting the Emperor's seal, which he wanted to keep away from wolves like Yuan and Cao. He was a brave general who continuously fought Han rebels at the risk of losing his own life.
Who are you to say he was not loyal?


Why didn't he return the seal to the emperor, if he was loyal, as you say?

BTW Who are you to say he was loyal?
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Unread postby Mega Zarak » Tue Oct 08, 2002 7:20 am

Zhou Gongjin wrote:
Zhuge Kongming wrote:His designs for the Imperial Seal are highly debatable.


Isn't this a debate forum? Doesn't everyone have their own view?


Yes of cos! Aren't we already in the heat of the debate? :lol:

Party A is entitled to claim that Sun Jian was loyal despite the fact that he kept the Jade Seal for his own personal gain, killed Han officials for no good reasons, etc. and they support their claim by saying that Sun Jian worked for the Han mechanism in certain ways like killing pirates and joining the coalition, killing Hua Xiong, etc.

Party B believes that those points brought up by Party A is not sufficient since killing of Han officials were acts committed by the same group of person (ie. Yellow Turban Rebels) whom Han loyalists were supposed to quell. A mere military official with no permission from the Dukes or the Emperor had no rights to keep the Jade Seal. Hence, when Party A continues to claim that Sun Jian was loyal and seeked to view things only from the pro-Sun perspective, Party B has the right to say that Party A is seeing things from a singular perspective which implies the existence of biasness.

Hence, the debate can go on to prove that Party A's viewpoint is not singular and I don't see anyone here trying to shove anything down others' throat or something in that direction. :D
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Unread postby Zhang Ren » Tue Oct 08, 2002 7:21 am

I am start wondering does anyone during early RTK period really does loyal to the Han. Just look at the Liu royal for instant, Liu Biao was content with being ruler of JingZhou that he didn't even care who control the capital or the Emperor. Liu Yan trying to start his own ambition in the south and never really care about the politic in the central plain. After Liu Yan pass away and Liu Zhang took controlled of YiZhou, he even lend support to Cao Cao to fight against Wu and Liu Bei at ChiBi. Now could anyone seriously asking mere servants like Cao Cao, Sun Jian/Sun Ce, Yuan Shao, Yuan Shu, Dong Zhou to be loyal and fully served the Han when even some of the close Han kinsmen like Liu Biao, Liu Yan/Liu Zhang, Liu Yao and ect didn't even care?
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