Han Loyalists

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Re: Han Loyalists

Unread postby PhoenixRising » Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:07 pm

Shen Ai wrote:He did okay under Cao Cao and Cao Pi and Cao Rui. But he suggested that Rui get more concubines which led to disaster.


hooo this is new to me....so wang lang force cao rui to have many concubines......

i've bet cao rui died because to much "activities" :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Han Loyalists

Unread postby Nanase » Fri Jun 29, 2012 8:17 am

Last prominent loyalist is Sun Jian for me.I know you all know about this but likes to point out some historical facts from various other books instead of Luo Guanzhong's novel which very romantisized about Sun Jian.

Sun Jian joined the general Zhu Jun to quell the rebellion of yellow turbans.Sun Jian reportefly placed himself in the forefront and climbed onto the city walls with normal troops.

In 184, Bian Zhang and Han Sui colluded with the Qiang tribes and rebelled in Liang Province. After Dong Zhuo failed to put down the rebellion, the central government sent in his place the Minister of Works Zhang Wen with an army, who invited Sun Jian along as an advisor. When Zhang Wen summoned Dong Zhuo to the encampment at Chang'an, Dong Zhuo procrastinated and took a long time to arrive. When he did, he showed little respect for Zhang Wen. Sun Jian then advised Zhang Wen to execute Dong Zhuo, but Zhang Wen declined as Dong Zhuo held high reputation in the west.

Hearing that a mass army had arrived, the rebels promptly surrendered. When Zhang Wen and the rest returned to the capital Luoyang, however, the court held that the army did not engage the enemy and thus no honor was accorded.

During coalition against Dong Zhuo Sun Jian also raised an army with ten-thousands of troops and joined Yuan Shu, one of the leaders of the coalition at Luyang. Yuan Shu made Sun Jian the General Who Quells Rebels and governor of Yuzhou. Sun Jian then began training and preparing his troops at Luyang. A force sent by Dong Zhuo was so impressed with the strict discipline of Sun Jian's troops that they gave up the plan to attack Luyang.

When Sun Jian moved out to Liangdong, he was outnumbered by Dong Zhuo's forces. With several dozen horsemen, Sun Jian broke out of the encirclement and reportedly saved by Zu Mao.After regrouping his troops, Sun Jian pressed forward against the capital and engaged in battle against Dong Zhuo's forces at Yangren. He scored a brilliant victory and killed the enemy commander-in-chief Hua Xiong in battle.(In Romance of the Three Kingdoms, Hua Xiong was said to be dramatically killed by Guan Yu.)

Fearing Sun Jian, Dong Zhuo then sent his general Li Jue as an emissary to seek peace and propose a marriage to cement the alliance. However, Sun Jian rejected the proposals with harsh words and carried on his campaign towards Luoyang. In late 190, his force was merely ninety li away from the capital when Dong Zhuo retreated west to Chang'an after burning Luoyang to the ground. Entering Luoyang, Sun Jian ordered his men to reseal the tombs of former emperors that were excavated by Dong Zhuo, after which he returned to Luyang. It was said in the Book of Wu by Wei Zhao that Sun Jian found one of the emperor's jade seals in a well south of Luoyang and kept it.(reason unknown ,thus many arguments were born about Sun Jian's loyalty by historians) Later, when Yuan Shu declared himself emperor, he held Sun Jian's wife Lady Wu hostage in exchange for the seal.

In 191, Yuan Shu sent Sun Jian to attack Liu Biao in Jing Province.(Which he took orders from his Han superior ,I wonder if only he refused it and built his powerbase around Wu instead of attacking Liu Biao with his army but he was dumb loyalist in my eyes) The defense force led by Liu Biao's subject Huang Zu was defeated by Sun Jian, who pursued the enemy across the Han River to Xiangyang. During a solo ride on the Xian Hill, Sun Jian was ambushed by Huang Zu's troops, who shot him to death with arrows. The Record of Heroes by Wang Can, however, claims that Sun Jian died in 193 and that he was crushed to death by boulders instead of killed by arrows while pursuing the enemy commander Lü Gong. His nephew Sun Ben collected his troops and returned to Yuan Shu, who then made Sun Ben the Inspector of Yu Province.

He was last most powerful loyalist figure in Later Han.When he died all hopes of restoring Han is dead in my eyes.Only Ma Teng left but his position is weaker than Sun Jian in my eyes.
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Re: Han Loyalists

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Jun 29, 2012 9:39 am

Welcome to the forum Nanase but would disagree based on two things

1) various Han loyalists like Xun Yu and Liu Yu lived longer then Sun Jian. Liu Yu was powerful if lacking miliatry competence. Ma Teng was not a Han loyalist, he rebelled against the Han.

2) I'm not convinced Sun Jian was a Han loyalist. All the things you mentioned (I'm assuming you don't know his his murder spree of Han governors?) more point to me a man taking advantage of the chance to rise up the ranks.

When he did, he showed little respect for Zhang Wen. Sun Jian then advised Zhang Wen to execute Dong Zhuo, but Zhang Wen declined as Dong Zhuo held high reputation in the west.


While that is recorded in the SGZ and the ZZTJ, some historians do dispute whether that was Wu propaganda rather then truthful.

Hearing that a mass army had arrived, the rebels promptly surrendered. When Zhang Wen and the rest returned to the capital Luoyang, however, the court held that the army did not engage the enemy and thus no honor was accorded.


Zhang Wen and co failed, despite the brilliance of Dong Zhuo and Sun Jian, the rebels suffered one or two defeats but the Han army also suffered loses and didn't get anywhere.

He scored a brilliant victory and killed the enemy commander-in-chief Hua Xiong in battle.(In Romance of the Three Kingdoms, Hua Xiong was said to be dramatically killed by Guan Yu.)


Hua Xiong was probably an administrative officer and he was rank was Chief controller.

Later, when Yuan Shu declared himself emperor, he held Sun Jian's wife Lady Wu hostage in exchange for the seal.


I believe that has also been heavily disputed by historians

(Which he took orders from his Han superior ,I wonder if only he refused it and built his powerbase around Wu instead of attacking Liu Biao with his army but he was dumb loyalist in my eyes)


I would suggest he did it becuase Sun Jian had no powerbase and Yuan Shu was his liege-lord, if Jian refused then Yuan Shu could just kill him.
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Re: Han Loyalists

Unread postby Shen Ai » Tue Aug 14, 2012 1:45 pm

The last independent loyalist to me was Liu Yu. The rest I don't really consider loyalists at all.
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Re: Han Loyalists

Unread postby Jordan » Fri Oct 25, 2013 4:25 am

I disagree with that. There were plenty of people loyal to the person of Emperor Xian who Cao Cao either killed or subverted.
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Re: Han Loyalists

Unread postby Qu Hui » Fri Oct 25, 2013 4:35 am

Jordan wrote:I disagree with that. There were plenty of people loyal to the person of Emperor Xian who Cao Cao either killed or subverted.

Yeah. Yang Biao for one. Arguably Xun Yu and Xun You count towards subverted, and really there are plenty of Han officials that Cao Cao had killed to weaken the Emperor's influence.

Nanase wrote:Later, when Yuan Shu declared himself emperor, he held Sun Jian's wife Lady Wu hostage in exchange for the seal.

That's doubtful. Lady Wu wasn't anywhere near Yuan Shu when he declared himself Emperor, having been sent to Qu'a after Sun Jian's death for safety.

Nanase wrote:Only Ma Teng left but his position is weaker than Sun Jian in my eyes.

Like Dong said, Ma Teng was a rebel against the Han and even if he was on the side of the Han at some point, he probably would have betrayed them at the soonest opportunity for his own gain. EDIT: Actually, that's exactly what he did when he joined the Qiang Rebellion, so yeah.
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Re: Han Loyalists

Unread postby Jordan » Sat Oct 26, 2013 12:41 am

Yeah. Yang Biao for one.


That is actually primarily who I was thinking of, though there were others too.
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Re: Han Loyalists

Unread postby AxeLordGerardo » Fri Nov 08, 2013 4:35 pm

I dont get it at all about Ma Teng.

Of course he was a rebel against the Han. He didn´t supported neither the Han or the Yellow Turbans.
But he participated in the Alliance against Dong Zhuo to "try to save the Han", like the other Lords.
And after that he participated in the Dong Cheng plot, if by chance this plot historically existed.
So, does not that make Ma Teng someone with a little loyalty to the Han by trying to save the Emperor?
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Re: Han Loyalists

Unread postby Sun Fin » Fri Nov 08, 2013 4:43 pm

AxeLordGerardo wrote:But he participated in the Alliance against Dong Zhuo to "try to save the Han", like the other Lords.


Actually Ma Teng didn't fight against Dong Zhuo as he was in an alliance with him.

AxeLordGerardo wrote:And after that he participated in the Dong Cheng plot, if by chance this plot historically existed.


Again fictional.
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Re: Han Loyalists

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:14 pm

Just to clarify, the Dong Cheng plot was true but Ma Teng's part was false. He was an ally of Cao Cao
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