Scholars of Shen Zhou

by **lordostrategy** » Mon Sep 23, 2002 2:09 am

Who do you think is the biggest traitor?

Personally, i find Zhuge Liang the biggest traitor..... he did take the majority of power from Liu Shan.... he was just a power hungry PM.

I will go more in depth if this thread is succesful, but here i will say he did kick Li Yan out of his military power.... to an extent.

by **Wei Yan** » Mon Sep 23, 2002 2:24 am

And Liu Chan was gonna do any better with power? Liu Chan wanted Zhuge Liang to take care of things for him because Liu Chan was a coward and terrible ruler. If Zhuge hadnt been there, Shu wouldve fell under the leadership :lol:

of Lui Chan. Zhuge Liang worked his ass off (although SGYY overexaggerated) to help Shu. What did Liu Chan ever do for Shu?

by **lordostrategy** » Mon Sep 23, 2002 2:27 am

He stripped Li Yan of power, meaning that only Liu Chan could override his orders. Even through many protests, Chan held firm with ZL. ZL even ignored the advice of Wei Yan (not you, the General) and didnt take up his better strategies.

If you dont call that power hungry, i dont know what is.

by **Wei Yan** » Mon Sep 23, 2002 2:31 am

Yes Zhuge Liang often ignored the advice of great officers. Li Yan was to be given equal power, but Zhuge didnt give him that. I hate Zhuge but I respect him. He should've listened to Wei Yan and made a big mistake of putting Ma Su in charge of Jie Ting. But everyone makes mistake (yes even SGYY Zhuge even though he's made out to be god).

I didnt say he wasnt power hungry, I said he was not a traitor. If fighting for his country is known is a traitorous crime, then I guess every general is guilty.

by **darthfergie** » Mon Sep 23, 2002 2:34 am

Biggest traitor you say? I thought this one was the most obvious question out there.

Cao Cao. nuff said...

by **lordostrategy** » Mon Sep 23, 2002 2:37 am

Hmmm.... geez, you always stump me....

*Light dawns on him*

Yeah right! ZL doomed Shu to fall with his petty quarrels with enemies. If he was so briliant as in SGZ, why didnt he ask Di and Qiang for help? Or is he just too plain greedy to do that? He didn't fight for his country, he fought for himself. He always did (when Chan was around) what benefitted him more.

Other guy.... no pics in sig, you should fix that.

by **Wei Yan** » Mon Sep 23, 2002 2:43 am

He could get help from the Qiangs because they were allied with Wei. Zhuge Liang had no ambitions other than fullfilling most of Liu Bei's wishes. I do not see how he went for his own personal reasons. He didnt upsurp the throne from Liu Chan even when he knew Liu Chan was incompetent. Zhuge Liang lead Shu's on the campaigns cause Liu Chan was a coward, unintelligent ruler. It was Liu Chan who surrendered Shu without a fight even when his generals and soldiers wanted to fight. What did Zhuge have to benefit from? He already had the most feared reputation throughout China, he was the PM of Shu. If Zhuge wanted greed then he wouldnt have work so hard in the campaigns. Instead of killing Meng Huo, he tried to make him submit. He couldve taken the easy route and finish thing but he wanted to work with the Nanman, not against them.

by **lordostrategy** » Mon Sep 23, 2002 2:48 am

No.... if he killed Meng Huo, he would have wound up fighting off Nanman every time he went on a northern campaign. He didn't want to expend the time and resources to do that, thus his release of Meng Huo all 7 times. (or was it 6?)

If he took the throne, he would be no better then Cao Cao, who achieve much more in his life span. (on ratio)

On a side note, we need a single debatting topic.... here we are, on 2 at once. Hehehehehehe this is getting off topic. Sorta

by **Wei Yan** » Mon Sep 23, 2002 2:53 am

He couldve taken the throne but he didnt. He didnt want to betray Liu Bei after he's given so much to him, and Zhuge would never do anything like that. He did that Meng Huo because he wanted the Namans to be allied with Shu, not against Shu. If he wouldve killed Meng Huo, that wouldve sealed the deal that the Naman could never be allies with Shu.

by **lordostrategy** » Mon Sep 23, 2002 2:55 am

ZL didn't take the throne, due to his greed. He knew that he would have to bear the burden of much more if he took the throne, then if he was a PM.

Now, if he killed Meng Huo, he again would have to fight off the Nanman army much more then if he didn't. Again, greed.

Sleepy.... ill continue this tomarrow.

Scholars of Shen Zhou

Romance of the Three Kingdoms Community

Biggest Traitor in the Three Kingdoms Era?

Biggest Traitor in the Three Kingdoms Era?

Who is online