Biggest Traitor in the Three Kingdoms Era?

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Re: Biggest Traitor in the Three Kingdoms Era?

Unread postby Sun Fin » Thu Jan 05, 2017 1:52 pm

danuracula wrote:
Dong Zhou wrote:If it was, we wouldn't have a 52 page thread :wink:

I'm guessing betraying Wei is the reason but why does that make them the biggest traitors for you?

Because I think the Simas (starting from Sima Yi) are Wei supporters for a very long time. Their betrayal create a new dynasty that made, not just Wei, but the other kingdoms also perished.

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How about everyone who had served the Han for generations but then abandoned them to support Cao Pi? Personally I find the Jin coup poetic justice.
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Re: Biggest Traitor in the Three Kingdoms Era?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Jan 06, 2017 1:57 pm

It is why things work. Weakness at top leads to decline, loss of support and eventually the guy at top goes. Han got awhile due to it's lustre and sense of permanence, Cao family never fully won over the gentry so first sign of trouble=support faded away which is a tad harsh but that is what happens.

As as Wei fan, I can't complain about Jin seizing control. I'll complain about the gentry though!
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Re: Biggest Traitor in the Three Kingdoms Era?

Unread postby jonathan_hili » Fri Jan 13, 2017 4:10 am

I'd say Dong Zhuo, Cao Pi and Sima Yan are the greatest traitors for they forced their legitimate ruler to abdicate in their favour or in favour of another (in the case of Dong Zhuo). I suppose you could add Yuan Shu to that list, who declared himself emperor while Han Xian Di was still alive.

I'm excusing Liu Bei and Sun Quan here. The former because there was a genuine belief (perhaps more pragmatically helpful than true) that Emperor Xian had been killed and so there was a vacuum in the Han line, and the latter (applies to Liu Bei too) because once a monarch abdicates, I would say the Mandate is up for grabs.
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Re: Biggest Traitor in the Three Kingdoms Era?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Jan 13, 2017 10:27 am

Dong was following a Han gentry tradition of taking out Han rulers they don't like :wink:

Is it is so bad really? I can well believe Dong saw his move as a ruthless but necessary step to save a Han whose decline he had born witness to. Cao Pi and Sima Yan taking the thrones? Well why not? The old dynasties for a variety of reasons have lost the gentry support, the Cao and Sima family were ruling successfully in all but name. Why is it bad to make the change?

A genuine belief? Liu Bei did not react well to Han loyalists who objected to his seizing throne and it certainly seemed to suit his interests (nor did his envoy to Wei seem to check Xian's fate or Shu ever go "oops, we step down. Sorry Xian"). Liu Bei and Sun Quan took advantage of the change of Emperor to legitimize their kingdoms, they were right to do so.
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Re: Biggest Traitor in the Three Kingdoms Era?

Unread postby lorindir » Wed Jan 25, 2017 7:09 am

Dong Zhou wrote:Dong was following a Han gentry tradition of taking out Han rulers they don't like :wink:

Is it is so bad really? I can well believe Dong saw his move as a ruthless but necessary step to save a Han whose decline he had born witness to.


So he concluded that the Han wasn't falling fast enough :lol:
Once he take power, he just made every single live being wish to kill him, so he really didn't his homework about usurpation? :D

Dong Zhou wrote:
A genuine belief? Liu Bei did not react well to Han loyalists who objected to his seizing throne and it certainly seemed to suit his interests (nor did his envoy to Wei seem to check Xian's fate or Shu ever go "oops, we step down. Sorry Xian"). Liu Bei and Sun Quan took advantage of the change of Emperor to legitimize their kingdoms, they were right to do so.


If they didn't, their officers would have found someone who did!
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Re: Biggest Traitor in the Three Kingdoms Era?

Unread postby Sun Fin » Wed Jan 25, 2017 12:09 pm

lorindir wrote:
Dong Zhou wrote:Dong was following a Han gentry tradition of taking out Han rulers they don't like :wink:

Is it is so bad really? I can well believe Dong saw his move as a ruthless but necessary step to save a Han whose decline he had born witness to.


So he concluded that the Han wasn't falling fast enough :lol:
Once he take power, he just made every single live being wish to kill him, so he really didn't his homework about usurpation? :D


The Han Emperor's by this point were merely figureheads. They were there for 'religious'* reasons. It was important that the Liu line were Emperor's and could fulfill their ceremonial duties but as for actually ruling, well that could easily be done by someone else. Dong's treatment of the Emperor was bad in terms of degree rather than in method if that makes sense. It wasn't the fact he took power that people were offended by but with how little respect he showed the Emperor.

That said Yuan Shao and co probably rebelled because under He Jin they were influential advisers whereas Dong brought in his own people that he already trusted and so they lost their power. Don's treatment of the Emperor was merely an excuse I suspect for many of them!

*religious isn't necessarily the right word here but a debate on how to define religion is not for this thread
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Re: Biggest Traitor in the Three Kingdoms Era?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:42 pm

lorindir wrote:
So he concluded that the Han wasn't falling fast enough :lol:
Once he take power, he just made every single live being wish to kill him, so he really didn't his homework about usurpation? :D


History shows that dethroning the Han emperor is an issue the gentry won't complain about. Regicide even, completely fine with the gentry. Thus why Han emperors preferred the eunuchs, death of the murdery kind far less likely. For Dong, one of the imperial line was better then the other, this was a time of crises, best to get the best choice on the throne and been done before. Senior members of the coalition had actually changed Ling's heir from Xian to Bian and then tried to replace Xian with the saintly Liu Yu so they were hardly innocent themselves

The difference between the past is the way Dong took control of the court differed from other regiciders and that changed the rules of the game. Suddenly one could take power with an army and couldn't the gentry summon up armies?

If they didn't, their officers would have found someone who did!


The officers might not have been pleased but overthrowing their powerful leaders? Not so displeased they plunge their kingdoms into a massive civil war
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Re: Biggest Traitor in the Three Kingdoms Era?

Unread postby Sun Fin » Wed Jan 25, 2017 10:41 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:
The difference between the past is the way Dong took control of the court differed from other regiciders and that changed the rules of the game. Suddenly one could take power with an army and couldn't the gentry summon up armies?


And armies were suddenly available to the gentry after the Yellow Turban rebellion!
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