The Chronicle of the Three Kingdoms

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Re: The Chronicle of the Three Kingdoms

Unread postby Jordan » Mon Jan 20, 2020 10:04 am

Check out the first year (AD 220) for some examples of edits I'm thinking of making. Interpolations would be bolded, italicized and in dark blue, or just bolded and italicized in Achilles Fang's notes. Achilles Fang's notes would be put in that nice dark red color.

Let me know what you guys think of the stylistic changes. Also let me know what you guys think about the idea of putting supplemental resources at the end of certain years. For AD 220, I included links to translated biographies of lesser known, but significant courtiers who appear prevalently in the section. I also included some general information on Heavenly Stems and Earthly Branches and on Ruler names, as both of these themes come up in the section. I also included cap's ZZTJ compilation on Jia Kui. I'm thinking of linking to other ZZTJ compilations written by members as characters appear. Does anybody have a list of those?



jiaoyu seems to translate into Commissioner, as I saw it translated that way somewhere else in the text (which I had missed before).

I fixed the last post of the text (AD 265), which for some reason got messed up previously.
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Re: The Chronicle of the Three Kingdoms

Unread postby Kongde » Mon Jan 20, 2020 2:22 pm

Jordan wrote:Check out the first year (AD 220) for some examples of edits I'm thinking of making. Interpolations would be bolded, italicized and in dark blue, or just bolded and italicized in Achilles Fang's notes. Achilles Fang's notes would be put in that nice dark red color.

Let me know what you guys think of the stylistic changes. Also let me know what you guys think about the idea of putting supplemental resources at the end of certain years. For AD 220, I included links to translated biographies of lesser known, but significant courtiers who appear prevalently in the section. I also included some general information on Heavenly Stems and Earthly Branches and on Ruler names, as both of these themes come up in the section. I also included cap's ZZTJ compilation on Jia Kui. I'm thinking of linking to other ZZTJ compilations written by members as characters appear. Does anybody have a list of those?



jiaoyu seems to translate into Commissioner, as I saw it translated that way somewhere else in the text (which I had missed before).

I fixed the last post of the text (AD 265), which for some reason got messed up previously.

I love it - this is a major improvement in looks and detail. The resources at the end are a really nice touch too. Excellent work!

As far as the list of member compilations, here is a thread - viewtopic.php?f=5&t=23272 should list all from cap, daolun, and sun fin.

There is also an index of SGZ translation links (including more than just Threestatesrecords links, with more officers) here viewtopic.php?f=5&t=22715 - I have updated it on the last page, but unfortunately I only ever finished Wei and never Shu or Wu. But the updated Wei list does have quite a bit of entries and links not on there before.

Hope these resources help!
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Re: The Chronicle of the Three Kingdoms

Unread postby Sun Fin » Mon Jan 20, 2020 5:02 pm

So I've got Loewe's The Government of the Qin and Han Empires which would hopefully provide some help on titles. Bielenstein's one would probably be even more helpful.
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Re: The Chronicle of the Three Kingdoms

Unread postby Jordan » Mon Jan 20, 2020 6:23 pm

Thanks for all the help guys.

If anybody wants to nominate useful resources to add at the end of any given year, let me know. Right now my preference is free online sources. Jstor is fine so long as the articles can be accessed for free (despite the monthly limit). I've added a few things here and there, like articles on Wang Bi, Zhong Hui and Shi Xie in relevant sections.
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Re: The Chronicle of the Three Kingdoms

Unread postby Jordan » Wed Jan 22, 2020 3:41 am

Mostly finished edits to year AD 240, the most important and eventful year in all of Chinese history. Does anybody know if the place referred to in the text as Yuehui is the same as Yuexi? In Zhang Ni's SGZ it seems to write the name as Yuexi, and Dr. Rafe de Crespigny has the hanzi for a Yuexi commandery, but I want to double check before putting that in.

I found the rank 翊軍將軍 (yijun jiangjun) in Terry Kleeman's Great Perfection, which is a book about the Cheng/Han dynasty (Li family dynasty located in Sichuan concurrent with Jin). I'm not certain this is the same as the yijun jiangjun that appears in the text to reference Zhao Yun, though I think it may be the same. Kleeman translates it as General of the Reserve Army. This may be a rank unique to Liu Bei's forces. I'm not certain of that either though.

Mostly finished with AD 242.

I have noticed that in a lot of places the text substitutes a title that I see elsewhere as "wei" with yu. Noticed this for instance through seeing an English title listed out (Garrison Cavalry Commander) but with Fang writing the rank with yu instead of wei. I think the title can be colonel or commandant. In one instance I had it as commissioner, which I must have found somewhere else. I recall vaguely it was also the case that Man Chong was taiwei, but this text writes taiyu. Also in the case of xiaowei, the first character can be read as either jiao or xiao according to mandarin tools, so occasionally I see jiaoyu where elsewhere online I see it as xiaowei.

English is an unnecessarily wordy language compared to Chinese and others. For any word there exists dozens of synonyms which often have near identical meaning. Also, English has a bizarre stylistic format where it looks terrible to reuse a word too much, necessitating the use of all the synonyms (in my opinion). Chinese can employ very repetitive use of a single word or character without looking anywhere near as redundant. However, with respect to ranks I do want to eventually find a standard for each specific Chinese one, which maybe we can reach a consensus on. For example, I saw Victor Cunrui Xiong translate da jiangjun as "Generalissimo." I dislike this word personally and opted for a different translation I have seen for da jiangjun of "General In Chief." Thus for Cao Xiu's rank of zhengdong da jiangjun I went with "General in Chief of the Eastern Expeditionary Forces." IF there is a better translation I am open to suggestions. These titles can be translated differently depending on preference in this way. The chinese words have a fixed meaning; for example "da" roughly meand big and in context of ranks indicates "great" or a more highly elevated title compared to somebody without "da" in the title. "Tai" is similar but tends to indicate an even higher title than "da." A da dudu is higher than a dudu, and a taiwei is higher than a xiaowei. But in English you can pick your favorite approximate word and stick with it. For da jiangjun I like general in chief better than generalissimo as it conveys a sense of a rank higher than general more obviously. At the same time it also suggests somebody not universally in charge, who might be a commander in chief or something. This is an example of some internal logic I am using when deciding on English for these ranks. I mostly am following conventions laid out in Dr. Rafe de Crespigny's Bio Dictionary and threestatesrecords rank guide. Those are my main sources.
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Re: The Chronicle of the Three Kingdoms

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Jan 22, 2020 6:29 pm

Late post, sorry been one of those weeks already, I like the new look for the ZZTJ with the notes and the links, it works well and seems clear as a reader. I do think it is a good change

I will have a look at the pinning suggestions
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Re: The Chronicle of the Three Kingdoms

Unread postby Kongde » Thu Jan 23, 2020 7:17 pm

A potential suggestion- perhaps you could add an additional post to list alternatives to title names or translations. Alternatively, you could simply put it one time in parenthesis. For example, in the case of deciding whether to use General in Chief vs Generalissimo, maybe it wouldnt be bad to entirely remove both translations. In some of the translations I've read from Shishuo Xinyu, Generalissimo is often the preferred translation, so a reader who may be reading other works who sees General in Chief instead may be confused and potentially mistake it as a different title all together.

I don't know the best way to go about it, but it seems worth a mention. Perhaps a note at the end with like letters instead of numbers, or perhaps in parenthesis, or perhaps dedicate an entire index post at the end to alternate translations.
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Re: The Chronicle of the Three Kingdoms

Unread postby Jordan » Fri Jan 24, 2020 11:41 am

That's why I'm getting anal about including the hanzi and even the pinyin (although including tones is a bit too much of a pain, which admittedly is a drawback). That way people can look them up and form their own judgments potentially. I think the best way is to put a list of the ranks, with the original hanzi and in Pinyin as well, in the first post of this thread with explanations of them and alternative translations.

I might take a break from this for awhile though.
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