Yuan Shao

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Unread postby Antiochus » Sat Apr 07, 2007 5:14 am

Yuan Shao had everything needed to unite the land. He had a powerfull base, a vast army, competent officers and advisors and came from a noble family.

He had two major flaws. The first one being his innability to think outside the box. He was way to orthodox in his approach of warfare compared to Cao Cao. His second flaw was his missuse of many competent officers (such as Tian Feng and Zhang He) while he was opposing the hero of chaos, who had great retainers(Cao Ren, Xiahou Yuan, Zhang Liao, Xun Yu, Li Dian, Yu Jin, Xu Zhu plus many more) and knew quite well how to use them properly.

In the end Yuan Shao was had all the tools to create an actual empire, but lacked the talent to use them.
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Unread postby Mei » Fri May 25, 2007 6:09 pm

I don't really know a great deal about Yuan Shao, historically, but from what I have learned so far, I believe his biggest downfall was his complacency. If he had been a little more receptive, he may have posed more of a threat, not only to Cao Cao, but the other rulers too.
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Unread postby man_on_the_pot » Sun Jul 22, 2007 12:27 am

the start of Yuan's problems was when he didnt take advantage of capturing the Emperor. When Liu Xie was fleeing from Li Jue, Yuan Shao could have taken Cao Cao's position and taken in Liu Xie. But, because he is too indecisive, he missed out on a huge opportunity.
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Re: Yuan Shao

Unread postby AxeLordGerardo » Wed Jun 19, 2013 5:59 pm

Nice topic here about my fav character. It is clear that in his later years, Yuan Shao commited some important mistakes in the battle of Guan Du, i recall the Wu Chao incident, a nice move from Cao Cao or a gift from Chunyu Qiong for beink drunk while guarding the place? The luck factor on the deaths of Yan Liang and Wen Chou, being Guan Yu there or not... So many variables in Yuan Shao´s course of action.

True is that Yuan Shao wasnt as smart as Cao Cao, but not when we talk about being loyal and work in favor of the Han.

If i remember well, Yuan Shao was the one who advised He Jin to dispose of the 10 eunuch several times, but his advise was each time ignored, who´s being the arrogant here?

Yuan Shao is the one with more possible discussion material here, we have a contrast here between the early clever and bold Yuan Shao from the court, working with He Jin and firm against Dong Zhuo, and the Yuan Shao maybe senile, anxious, unsure and easily enraged from Guan Du. Nobody can know yet today, which factor determined his behavior´s change, but we must be all agreed in the fact that without Yuan Shao, 3 kingdoms period is not the same.

P.D.: Cao Cao suffered almost the same situation at Chi Bi, numbers dont give you the victory. Not a big deal either...
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Re: Yuan Shao

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Jun 20, 2013 12:45 pm

AxeLordGerardo wrote:
If i remember well, Yuan Shao was the one who advised He Jin to dispose of the 10 eunuch several times, but his advise was each time ignored, who´s being the arrogant here?


Assuming your speaking novel then yes, that was a reflection of He Jin's arrogance.
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Unread postby AxeLordGerardo » Sun Jun 23, 2013 1:30 pm

LiuBeiwasGreat wrote:
Vanman wrote:The thing that gets me is why didn't Yuan Shao denounce Dong Zhou as a traitor to the Han right after Dong came to him with the plan to dethrone Shao Di in favor of Liu Xie. Were not the troops loyal to the Emperor and Yuan Shao more numerous than those lead by or allied to Dong Zhou? What was the point of making his excuse then leaving the city?

Dong was right there, in front of him, plotting the overthrow of the rightful sovreign. Why not raise your sword against the tyrant the second after the plan left his lips?

Am I right in beleving that oppritunity fell through Yuan Shao's hands like rain through air?


Well at that point Dong Zhuo controlled the capital and all the soldiers in it. So Dong Zhuo had way more troops then anyone else at the capital. Yuan Shao had to leave in order to raise an army.


Exactly my thoughts. Yuan Shao had to go away to think a plan to depose Dong Zhuo. Anyway, he showed guts to face Dong Zhuo amidst all his men being Lu Bu there to silent any rebellious voice. I suppose it was during the Alliance against Dong Zhuo when Yuan Shao considered seriously the need to expand his territories, seeing the Han was already doomed.

Mega Zarak wrote:During the beginning of Yuan Shao's southern expedition, Tian Feng advised him against it due to various reasons such as Cao Cao's military prowess, the weariness of the populace, etc. However, Yuan Shao was adamant about it and when Tian Feng repeatedly begged Yuan Shao to accept his advice, he was imprisoned by Yuan Shao on the account of disrupting the army's morale. When Yuan Shao was subsequently defeated by Cao Cao at Guan Du, Tian Feng was told that he might be given greater recognition for correctly predicting the failure of the expedition. To this, Tian Feng objected and he said that had Yuan Shao returned in triumph, he might overlooked the past but now that Yuan Shao was soundly defeated, it was not likely that Yuan Shao would let him live. True enough, Yuan Shao ordered Tian Feng to be executed on returning north and this was one example showing how Yuan Shao's supposed generosity was merely an act while deep inside him, he was in fact a very narrow-minded person.


Was not supposed Tian Feng committed suicide?

Dong Zhou wrote:Yuan Shao made some errors near the end but who hasn't? An able man whose advisors where loyal to him, he oh so nearly won anyway. Had he won, we wouldn't be discussing why his men served him. The answer: he was charasmatic enough and powerful


It occurs even today. People of fine reputation or charisma serving under people of doubtful ideals. But im completely sure Tian Feng and Ju Shou had enough reasons to stay loyal to Yuan Shao. And dont have to be precisely to Yuan Shao, but his family or friends there as well. I expect moderator Dong Zhou has not changed his opinion from that time to now lol :lol:
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Re: Yuan Shao

Unread postby Jordan » Sun Jun 23, 2013 6:16 pm

His treatment of Qu Yi bears mention too. Here he had probably his best officer, one who he owed nearly all of his major victories to, and he kills him. Qu Yi was an officer who easily was comparable to some of Cao Cao's best, and possibly could have made the difference at Guandu. Yet Yuan Shao had several of his best officers-Tian Feng and Qu Yi for example-deposed of, and he didn't listen to the advice of Zhang He or Tian Feng. He also alienated Xu You which was the actual reason for his defeat at Guandu, above all else.

By contrast, when Cao Cao discovered that several of his officers/soldiers/whatever had written letters to Yuan Shao's camp, possibly planning betrayal, he burned all the letters he found and forgave them.
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Re: Yuan Shao

Unread postby AxeLordGerardo » Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:45 am

Jordan wrote:His treatment of Qu Yi bears mention too. Here he had probably his best officer, one who he owed nearly all of his major victories to, and he kills him. Qu Yi was an officer who easily was comparable to some of Cao Cao's best, and possibly could have made the difference at Guandu. Yet Yuan Shao had several of his best officers-Tian Feng and Qu Yi for example-deposed of, and he didn't listen to the advice of Zhang He or Tian Feng. He also alienated Xu You which was the actual reason for his defeat at Guandu, above all else.

By contrast, when Cao Cao discovered that several of his officers/soldiers/whatever had written letters to Yuan Shao's camp, possibly planning betrayal, he burned all the letters he found and forgave them.


You have some truth in what you say as i stated before, bit i dont think Cao Cao were that great either just looking at the examples on the betrayals and death of Chen Gong, the despise on Xun Yu and the torture of the physician Ji Ping and the execution of Kong Rong only for give an opinion different from Cao Cao's thoughts.

Sorry but one of my reasons to justify Yuan Shao is that even the main three kingdoms rulers didnt far better from him. Cao Cao was the most tyrannic one only behind of Dong Zhuo, and no individual officer treatment will change that.
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Re: Yuan Shao

Unread postby Jordan » Thu Jun 27, 2013 8:46 am

You have some truth in what you say as i stated before, bit i dont think Cao Cao were that great either just looking at the examples on the betrayals and death of Chen Gong, the despise on Xun Yu and the torture of the physician Ji Ping and the execution of Kong Rong only for give an opinion different from Cao Cao's thoughts.


I agree completely.

The trick was timing, however. Cao Cao didn't go about putting his advisers to death during a critical time like the events leading up to the Battle of Guandu. He carried out massacres and put to death many of his gentry subordinates, but he did so at times when it didn't seriously destabilize his position.

I'm not particularly enamored of Cao Cao by any means. He was a talented individual. However, I've always been wary of the people he stepped over on his path to power. In some ways this was true of all the warlords of the era, but there are several particularly egregious examples of Cao Cao that come to mind specifically.
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Re: Yuan Shao

Unread postby Sun Fin » Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:35 am

Basically the difference between Cao Cao and Yuan Shao isn't how brutal they were but how they used their brutality. For the most part Cao Cao only killed people when it helped his cause whereas Yuan Shao wasn't quite so capable at realising the right time to off people.
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