Yuan Shao

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Re: Yuan Shao

Unread postby Jordan » Sun Jun 30, 2013 1:07 am

Basically the difference between Cao Cao and Yuan Shao isn't how brutal they were but how they used their brutality. For the most part Cao Cao only killed people when it helped his cause whereas Yuan Shao wasn't quite so capable at realising the right time to off people.


Sun Fin summed it up much better than I did, Gerardo.
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Re: Yuan Shao

Unread postby AxeLordGerardo » Fri Oct 11, 2013 4:30 pm

I can agree with you but only before Guan Du, as I have already said in another post. Feng Ji's plan to occupy Han Fu's territory and granaries and Ju Shou's strategy to defeat Gongsun Zan are two clear examples that demontrates that Yuan Shao too listened to his advisors, at least in the first part of his expansion.

The main difference between Cao Cao and Yuan Shao was that while Yuan Shao was thinking in expand his influence, Cao Cao was thinking in Yuan Shao's movements even since Hu Lao Gate, where they broke relations.

But when I look forward and see the Cao Cao early and later battles, I can easily reach the conclusion that Yuan Shao was clearly the only force with enough potential to stop him before Wei were stablished by Cao Pi (some think Cao Cao is Wei, but Wei didn't exist in Cao Cao's period), even with all the troops lost and officers, only the luck of the supply depot raid stripped him from the final victory.

Why then Yuan Shao continue being considered a great army today?
Last edited by AxeLordGerardo on Fri Oct 11, 2013 4:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Yuan Shao

Unread postby Sun Fin » Fri Oct 11, 2013 4:44 pm

Ah you're talking about the novel AxeLord; in which case you’re probably right.
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Re: Yuan Shao

Unread postby AxeLordGerardo » Fri Oct 11, 2013 4:47 pm

Sun Fin wrote:Ah you're talking about the novel AxeLord; in which case you’re probably right.

Alright. Then I would like to know how the historic Yuan Shao managed to expand his territories in historic version. But i think this time there is no great difference from the novel since he enjoyed great success in his northern conquest.
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Re: Yuan Shao

Unread postby Sun Fin » Fri Oct 11, 2013 5:09 pm

It wasn't your comments on Yuan Shao I was commenting on. It was this line:

Cao Cao was thinking in Yuan Shao's movements even since Hu Lao Gate, where they broke relations.


Cao Cao and Yuan Shao formed an alliance, along with Liu Biao against Yuan Shu and Gongsun Zan, so it seems unlikely to me that Cao Cao was plotting against Shao right from the very beginning.
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Re: Yuan Shao

Unread postby AxeLordGerardo » Fri Oct 11, 2013 5:14 pm

Sun Fin wrote:It wasn't your comments on Yuan Shao I was commenting on. It was this line:

Cao Cao was thinking in Yuan Shao's movements even since Hu Lao Gate, where they broke relations.


Cao Cao and Yuan Shao formed an alliance, along with Liu Biao against Yuan Shu and Gongsun Zan, so it seems unlikely to me that Cao Cao was plotting against Shao right from the very beginning.


Maybe I didn't explained it well. I mean that Cao Cao, being that smart as he was, he knew Yuan Shao very well even since his youth, when they were yet friends, maybe being that the reason Cao Cao could anticipate some of Shao's thoughts and his proceeding way. Yuan Shao hadn't that malicious and advantageous talent. The talent of know his childhood friend.

Oh, in that other case, then excuse me Sun Fin.
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Re: Yuan Shao

Unread postby Jordan » Sat Oct 12, 2013 10:35 am

AxeLordGerardo wrote:
Sun Fin wrote:Ah you're talking about the novel AxeLord; in which case you’re probably right.

Alright. Then I would like to know how the historic Yuan Shao managed to expand his territories in historic version. But i think this time there is no great difference from the novel since he enjoyed great success in his northern conquest.


The major difference is that the novel doesn't tend to mention much if anything about the accomplishments of Qu Yi. In the book, Qu Yi is just another officer of Yuan Shao who, I think, is killed by Zhao Yun. Historically Qu Yi was a very important general in Yuan Shao's rise to power.
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Re: Yuan Shao

Unread postby AxeLordGerardo » Fri Mar 27, 2015 1:18 pm

About the summoning of troops to the capital, i have being reading about the issue and i don´t see it was precisely Yuan Shao who advised to bring Dong Zhuo´s army to the capital, but to "bring troops to the capital" to bring an end to the eunuchs. For me, it was He Jin the one who decided to bring the powerful Liang army to the capital. Many people don´t see here either that Yuan Shao was one of the active figures in the court about the eunuchs´downfall, and about the Alliance´s outcome, it was not entirely Yuan Shao´s fault or lack of leadership. There was already a great jealousy and disunity between the different lords, and if Cao Cao was so clever on his movements and management of his troops back there, why was he utterly defeated by a routed army like it was that of Dong Zhuo. How is that Cao Cao was not capable to see the ambush they prepared for him. How is it possible you can´t see all the details of the movement?

Then should i call too a goofball to Cao Cao for his disaster at the Red Cliffs?
Or to Sun Jian for his foolish death attacking Liu Biao?
Or to Liu Bei for his miserable and predictable defeat at Yi Ling?

No, they were after all great lords.

I think it is not just to understimate Yuan Shao for not doing better or for not enjoying a better role after defeating Gongsun Zan. The truth above all is that his peopled loved him even knowing his flaws. If you respect Tian Feng and Ju Shou, you should respect Yuan Shao then. Tian Feng was aware of his life being in danger if he continued giving his most sincere advise to Yuan Shao, but still he decided to continue giving it. Surely Yuan Shao was very distressed in the Guan Du period. He was already preventing his sons to enter a competition for merits. He knew his sons could mess it all he gained with great effort. Personally i think Feng Ji was the direct responsable of Tian Feng's death.

I can only give an opinion on how Yuan Shao did it, but i am sure it is not that easy to lead a vast and powerful army and at the same time, to maintain the loyalty of your subordinates. In the end, we don´t know how to manage the situation, we are not Yuan Shao and we don´t know what was in Yuan Shao´s head back there.

Do you think it is that easy to be a warlord?
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Re: Yuan Shao

Unread postby Shen Ai » Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:01 pm

From what I recall He Jin and Yuan Shao intended to intimidate Empress He (or at least motivate her) into issuing an edict that would get rid of the Eunuchs by gathering various warlords together and showing unity in their mission.

I would say Yuan Shao storming the city and massacring anyone he saw was his major crime. Bringing the Liang army over seemed to be a unanimous decision by a lot of the involved parties.
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Re: Yuan Shao

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Mar 27, 2015 6:15 pm

I don't blame Yuan Shao for the fall of He Jin and yes he was active in the efforts to defeat the eunuchs. I also agree Yuan Shao shouldn't be blamed for the Coalition failings generally, he was picked for his name but didn't have power to assert authority. One of his "subordinates" could crush him if Yuan Shao started acting up. Yuan Shao can be blamed for some of the politicking going on and perhaps not trying his luck himself but he would probably have lost that battle.

AxeLordGerardo wrote:and if Cao Cao was so clever on his movements and management of his troops back there, why was he utterly defeated by a routed army like it was that of Dong Zhuo.


Dong's army wasn't routed and he was facing Xu Rong. Cao Cao was very inexperienced at the time and lost to a far more hardened army

AxeLordGerardo wrote:Then should i call too a goofball to Cao Cao for his disaster at the Red Cliffs?
Or to Sun Jian for his foolish death attacking Liu Biao?
Or to Liu Bei for his miserable and predictable defeat at Yi Ling?


One places defeats like that in the context of what blame can be attached (Sun Jian gets it more in the neck then Cao Cao) and their overall career

No, they were after all great lords.


Sun Jian wasn't a warlord so... :wink:

I think it is not just to understimate Yuan Shao for not doing better or for not enjoying a better role after defeating Gongsun Zan. The truth above all is that his peopled loved him even knowing his flaws. If you respect Tian Feng and Ju Shou, you should respect Yuan Shao then. Tian Feng was aware of his life being in danger if he continued giving his most sincere advise to Yuan Shao, but still he decided to continue giving it. Surely Yuan Shao was very distressed in the Guan Du period. He was already preventing his sons to enter a competition for merits. He knew his sons could mess it all he gained with great effort. Personally i think Feng Ji was the direct responsable of Tian Feng's death.


Sure, Yuan Shao could command loyalty, to a degree, of his officers. He deserves credit for that. I don't think one has to respect people just becuase you admire a subordinate though.

The SGZ raises the suggestion Tian Feng had a history of being annoying and pressing with advice, he may just have continued that. Yuan Shao didn't seem to show much sign he knew his sons could mess up and Yuan Shao must take blame for his actions including Tian Feng's death.

AxeLordGerardo wrote:I can only give an opinion on how Yuan Shao did it, but i am sure it is not that easy to lead a vast and powerful army and at the same time, to maintain the loyalty of your subordinates. In the end, we don´t know how to manage the situation, we are not Yuan Shao and we don´t know what was in Yuan Shao´s head back there.


Sure, being a successful warlord isn't easy and Yuan Shao was a good one till his decline. However keeping your officer core together is a key part and in the latter years, Yuan Shao failed on that.

The last line seems like your saying unless one has done something, you can't ever comment on it?

Do you think it is that easy to be a warlord?


Never said it was.
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