The Most Loyal

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Re: The Most Loyal

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Jan 06, 2017 2:06 pm

One wonders if Liu Bei might have been stirring things up a little :wink:

It is always possible that he turns, whether taking Yi would have inflated ambition (would not be the first that happened to) or perhaps he calculated at Sun Ce's death the odds were a little too dicey for him to claim power but Zhou Yu was loyal while he lived and that is all he can be judged on.
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Re: The Most Loyal

Unread postby ji ping » Sat Jan 07, 2017 9:35 am

How about Ji Ping (吉平) “Court physician from Luoyang. Forced to commit suicide by Cao Cao.” refused to spill beans on the girdle conspiracy and when Cao Cao cut his fingers still cursed him and died a loyal man
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Re: The Most Loyal

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sun Jan 08, 2017 10:26 pm

Welcome to the forum Ji Ping

He makes a good choice, that novel death is brutal and he certainly goes bravely to his fate
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Re: The Most Loyal

Unread postby lorindir » Wed Jan 25, 2017 7:20 am

Gao Shun.
Because he was loyal to Lu Bu until the end (even when everybody turned on him), and just between us.....
If someone can be that loyal to Lu Bu, he deserves to be remembered.
Ok your majesty, now, back to your room!
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Re: The Most Loyal

Unread postby Ouyang_Feng » Sat Feb 01, 2020 12:48 pm

Zhang Liao17 wrote:Who was the most loyal officer of the RTK era?

My main choices are Zhang Liao, Guan Yu, Zhang Fei and Shen Pei.

Zhang Liao for serving Wei for so long and helping shape the Wei dynasty and defend it. Guan Yu and Zhang Fei for being loyal to their brother above all else and Shen Pei for never even considering joining Cao Cao but dying facing his lord in the north.

Who are your top picks?


Yue Jin serve Cao Cao longer than Zhang Liao and he also have great impact in helping Cao Cao build Wei

Well talk about loyalty there is actually a lot of officer. To begin with that Zhuge Liang guy was loyal, then comes Cheng Pu and the gang, then Zhang Ren, Tian Feng and Ju Shou
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Re: The Most Loyal

Unread postby Sun Fin » Sun Feb 02, 2020 12:59 pm

Huang Gai took an undeserved whipping for his state. I'm surprised I've never thought about him deserving to be in this conversation before!
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Re: The Most Loyal

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Sun Feb 02, 2020 12:59 pm

Ouyang_Feng wrote:Yue Jin serve Cao Cao longer than Zhang Liao and he also have great impact in helping Cao Cao build Wei


Simply because Zhang Liao was serving someone else. Zhang Liao outlived Yue Jin and continued to provide excellent support to the foundation of the state, and eventually to Cao Pi when he became Emperor. From the destruction of the Wuhuan confederation to Heavenly Pillar Peak and Xiaoyao Ford, Zhang Liao contributed a lot. To paraphrase Fu Xuan, Zhang Liao's valor was surpassed only by Cao Ren.

Ouyang_Feng wrote:Well talk about loyalty there is actually a lot of officer. To begin with that Zhuge Liang guy was loyal, then comes Cheng Pu and the gang, then Zhang Ren, Tian Feng and Ju Shou


No mention of Zhuge Jing in this pile of relative nobodies of non-importance like Zhang Ren? Zhuge Jing refused to be employed by the state that conquered him. He never faced toward the capital in Luoyang. What of Luo Xian? The man who was so loyal to Shu that even after it surrendered he was willing to risk his life, without a state, to defend it from Wu invasion in 264?
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Re: The Most Loyal

Unread postby Ouyang_Feng » Sun Feb 02, 2020 1:51 pm

DaoLunOfShiji wrote:
Ouyang_Feng wrote:Yue Jin serve Cao Cao longer than Zhang Liao and he also have great impact in helping Cao Cao build Wei


Simply because Zhang Liao was serving someone else. Zhang Liao outlived Yue Jin and continued to provide excellent support to the foundation of the state, and eventually to Cao Pi when he became Emperor. From the destruction of the Wuhuan confederation to Heavenly Pillar Peak and Xiaoyao Ford, Zhang Liao contributed a lot. To paraphrase Fu Xuan, Zhang Liao's valor was surpassed only by Cao Ren.

Ouyang_Feng wrote:Well talk about loyalty there is actually a lot of officer. To begin with that Zhuge Liang guy was loyal, then comes Cheng Pu and the gang, then Zhang Ren, Tian Feng and Ju Shou


No mention of Zhuge Jing in this pile of relative nobodies of non-importance like Zhang Ren? Zhuge Jing refused to be employed by the state that conquered him. He never faced toward the capital in Luoyang. What of Luo Xian? The man who was so loyal to Shu that even after it surrendered he was willing to risk his life, without a state, to defend it from Wu invasion in 264?


Zhang Liao might be outlived Yue Jin but post He Fei i don't remember Zhang Liao get involved in significant campaign, last time i remember Zhang Liao went into a war was battle of Dongkou where he defeated Lu Fan

About Yue Jin.. he was contributed too in most of Cao Cao's campaign, especially Guan Du, and remember he was there too in He Fei

Well that was a nice addition you got there. About Zhang Ren.. loyalty is loyalty no matter how insignificant the guy was
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Re: The Most Loyal

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Sun Feb 02, 2020 2:03 pm

Ouyang_Feng wrote:Zhang Liao might be outlived Yue Jin but post He Fei i don't remember Zhang Liao get involved in significant campaign, last time i remember Zhang Liao went into a war was battle of Dongkou where he defeated Lu Fan


Zhang Liao was involved in the Fancheng campaign against Guan Yu, he was sent as reinforcements just before Xu Huang defeated Guan Yu and as you mentioned, he defeated Lu Fan. The reason he didn't participate in much after Hefei was that his post was on the Eastern Theater. The conflicts after Hefei and before his death were all participated in for this theater. He wasn't going to be in the west against Shu.

Ouyang_Feng wrote:About Yue Jin.. he was contributed too in most of Cao Cao's campaign, especially Guan Du, and remember he was there too in He Fei


I know this. I'm not arguing against Yue Jin or his merits, but your dismissal of Zhang Liao's loyalty simply because Yue Jin served first.

Ouyang_Feng wrote:Well that was a nice addition you got there. About Zhang Ren.. loyalty is loyalty no matter how insignificant the guy was


Sure, but there are dozens of other names one can bring up before Zhang Ren. I'm curious as to why he is one of your go-to names.
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Re: The Most Loyal

Unread postby Ouyang_Feng » Sun Feb 02, 2020 2:14 pm

DaoLunOfShiji wrote:
Ouyang_Feng wrote:Zhang Liao might be outlived Yue Jin but post He Fei i don't remember Zhang Liao get involved in significant campaign, last time i remember Zhang Liao went into a war was battle of Dongkou where he defeated Lu Fan


Zhang Liao was involved in the Fancheng campaign against Guan Yu, he was sent as reinforcements just before Xu Huang defeated Guan Yu and as you mentioned, he defeated Lu Fan. The reason he didn't participate in much after Hefei was that his post was on the Eastern Theater. The conflicts after Hefei and before his death were all participated in for this theater. He wasn't going to be in the west against Shu.

Ouyang_Feng wrote:About Yue Jin.. he was contributed too in most of Cao Cao's campaign, especially Guan Du, and remember he was there too in He Fei


I know this. I'm not arguing against Yue Jin or his merits, but your dismissal of Zhang Liao's loyalty simply because Yue Jin served first.

Ouyang_Feng wrote:Well that was a nice addition you got there. About Zhang Ren.. loyalty is loyalty no matter how insignificant the guy was


Sure, but there are dozens of other names one can bring up before Zhang Ren. I'm curious as to why he is one of your go-to names.


When Zhang Liao comes to Fan Xu Huang already defeated Guan Yu

The thing is.. i heard someone mentioned Zhang Liao been served Cao Cao for long time, well if we look at the timeline i see that Yue Jin been there with Cao Cao earlier. I wasn't dispute the loyalty of Zhang Liao but i just want to correct that there is also big name that have been serve Cao Cao long before him

He was easy to remember haha..
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