The Most Loyal

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Re: The Most Loyal

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Nov 09, 2011 6:58 am

Cao Cao might not to become Emperor, or he might have, but he wanted to be Duke and he wanted safety for his children. He certainly didn't want to be embarrassed. Xun Yu had thrown in his lot with the Emperor and now was a threat to Cao Cao's succession.

Natural causes is always a possibility but it would be a remarkable coincidence, just like tall those disgraced Empress/concubines who "died of grief." Xun Yu had pissed off Cao Cao, effectively been removed from powerbase and dragged away and the language of the sgz is one of those used for suicide. Plus several sources actually saying it was suicide.
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Re: The Most Loyal

Unread postby Striga » Sun Nov 13, 2011 9:43 pm

He didn't want to ruin his reputation, so he probably would have had little to do with Xun Yu's death, and Xun Yu was old enough that by the time Cao Cao died, Xun Yu would have died of old age. If not, Cao Pi could dispose of him.
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Re: The Most Loyal

Unread postby Shen Ai » Sun Nov 13, 2011 9:58 pm

Xun Yu was a great asset to Wei. A very skilled adviser.
Shame he lost Cao's favour with his little qualms.
Cao Pi might have replaced him, but he was probably charismatic and pretty respected. That never stopped Pi, I know, but he might have indulged him, though not change his plans.
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Re: The Most Loyal

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sun Nov 13, 2011 10:06 pm

Striga wrote:He didn't want to ruin his reputation, so he probably would have had little to do with Xun Yu's death, and Xun Yu was old enough that by the time Cao Cao died, Xun Yu would have died of old age. If not, Cao Pi could dispose of him.


Cao Cao ruthlessly killed plenty of advisers during this period though it suited Cao Cao (and Xun Yu's family) for it to be a quiet sucide. At this point, with Cao Cao ageing, the warlord is less concerned with reputation and rather concerned with securing the succession.

Cao Cao doesn't know when he is going to die. As it was, entirely possibly for Xun Yu to have lived till he was 57 and then be a threat to Cao Pi whose position was fragile. Even with preparation, it took decesivie action by Pi and his advisers to ensure the throne was secure for Pi, had Xun Yu been there then that task would have been rather more difficult. Assuming Xun Yu doesn't make things more difficult before that point anyway
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Re: The Most Loyal

Unread postby Striga » Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:46 pm

I now think of Xun Yu as another version of Erwin Rommel.
If he died quietly, then he was quite loyal to Cao Cao and wished to protect his relatives.
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Re:

Unread postby Human5 » Fri Dec 23, 2011 1:50 am

xu xuesheng wrote:I consider anybody who rather commit suicide than surrender loyal.


That's not always the case. What if someone committed suicide if they cannot bear the humiliation of being captured by the enemy? If so, I would not consider them loyal.
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Re: The Most Loyal

Unread postby Striga » Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:05 am

I can’t imagine those types of people willing to admit defeat, so their suicides would be rare, and they’d be more likely to try and charge through the enemy ranks in a desperate last attempt.
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Re: The Most Loyal

Unread postby Human5 » Fri Dec 23, 2011 3:58 pm

Striga wrote:I can’t imagine those types of people willing to admit defeat, so their suicides would be rare, and they’d be more likely to try and charge through the enemy ranks in a desperate last attempt.


Well, maybe.

xu xuesheng wrote:I consider anybody who rather commit suicide than surrender loyal.

Then Guan Yu is disloyal. He did not commit suicide when he was asked to join Cao Cao after Guan Yu's defeat.
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Re: The Most Loyal

Unread postby Striga » Fri Dec 23, 2011 9:23 pm

He ended up messing up Liu Bei’s chances at winning regardless, by ruining relationships with Wu, as a “sworn” brother of Liu Bei.
Anyways, his statement didn’t necessarily mean that those who surrender aren’t loyal.
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Re: The Most Loyal

Unread postby Shen Ai » Fri Dec 23, 2011 10:09 pm

Zhang Zhao was pretty loyal, putting up with all of Quan's crazy.
I've a brave warrior in my army. Shen Ai is his name, and he can slay this Hua Xiong.

Wei has no more famous commanders, Shen Ai takes lead of the vanguard!

Even a commoner on the street knows what Shen Ai is thinking!
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