Zhuge Liang deserves better treatment

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Unread postby White Horse General » Wed Apr 07, 2004 7:04 pm

I'm coming into this a little late and sadly haven't read through all the posts but this is my take on it.

LGZ was just attempting to make Kongming look even greater than he was. We all know he was brilliant, we all know in the later days he was literally the backbone of the entire dynasty, but LGZ, who was a poet and storyteller himself before writing SGYY, wanted to go a step beyond that. I suppose it was only natural for a storyteller to try and make gods of heroes and devils of villains. Thus how do we up the ante of a man who is already exceedinly brillaint? Bring him to the point of supernatural; the ways of heaven and earth were big to these people and it would only make a hero seem like even more of a champion if heaven itself seemed to work for him.

That's how I see it anyhow, the real Zhuge Liang was ahead of his time so to speak and the only way LGZ could make him seem better ( as he wanted to do ) was to make him godly.
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Unread postby Kong Wen » Wed Apr 07, 2004 7:58 pm

White Horse General wrote:That's how I see it anyhow, the real Zhuge Liang was ahead of his time so to speak and the only way LGZ could make him seem better ( as he wanted to do ) was to make him godly.

Poor Luo Guanzhong. Everyone always attributes historical inaccuracies to him, when all he was trying to do was make a good book.

Luo Guanzhong didn't make Zhuge Liang the mystical magical mighty man he was in the book--if anything, he toned down the Kongming-worship. The Sanguo zhi pinghua--a prototypical SGYY and one of Luo's sources--actually makes Kongming way more of a godlike figure than SGYY does. Not only that, but Mao Zonggang revised Luo Guanzhong's novel and edited it to be much more pro-Shu than the original version was. Luo Guanzhong was just one artist in a tradition of artists, so the portrayal of super-Kongming in the novel can't be attributed just to him.
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Unread postby White Horse General » Thu Apr 08, 2004 4:52 am

Kong Wen wrote:Luo Guanzhong didn't make Zhuge Liang the mystical magical mighty man he was in the book--if anything, he toned down the Kongming-worship. The Sanguo zhi pinghua--a prototypical SGYY and one of Luo's sources--actually makes Kongming way more of a godlike figure than SGYY does. Not only that, but Mao Zonggang revised Luo Guanzhong's novel and edited it to be much more pro-Shu than the original version was. Luo Guanzhong was just one artist in a tradition of artists, so the portrayal of super-Kongming in the novel can't be attributed just to him.


LGZ is the devil!!

On a more serious note I wasn't aware of that :) you learn something new everyday.
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Unread postby Funkill » Thu Apr 22, 2004 5:43 am

I'm not that sure, but LGZ's novel of SGYY seems to be SHu -Han sided. All things about Shu-Han was good and all about Wei, which in my opinion, represented the true dynasty of China, to be evil. And he described Wu as a party who switch to any side that gave them the most advantages. I'm sure what had written in SGYY had some degree of untrueness.

But without any doubt, i in the opinion that Zhuge Liang was a great man. The only thing he was wrong was he had weaken the SHu power through his North Invation operation, a short period after he completed his South operation, so called to civilised the South Region.......
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Unread postby Jiang Wei » Fri May 07, 2004 5:23 pm

I believe that, should ZGL have lived beyond that particular battle, it would have changed everything. Shu would not have been invaded. Like it or not, ZGL in that time period was noted as a great military mind, historically. Just his reputation would have given any good commander pause. Military minds have a way of repeating the same strategies and tactics over and over again.

Point of fact, if I was Sima Yi, and I know Zhuge Liang is alive, I would have remembered the different battles that had been fought in this war, and would be prepared for those same ideas and tactics to be repeated. Such a retreat into Shu after a clear defeat, would not have been followed, for fear of another Bo Wang Po. I dont know if this is historical or not, but thanks to ZGL and Jiang Wei, Sima Yi was already in the political crosshairs, and a major defeat would have been disastrous for him.

Sidepoint: Any of you ever play the game RTK on PS2? The ones that are released recently are very accurate, giving the strength of certain cities, like Hanzhong as almost impregnable. If you feel like proving your strategic mind, go for it :)
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Unread postby General Wuzixi » Sat Jul 17, 2004 7:21 am

Well not just Luo Guan Zhong amde him like this in China many Novelist write him as God and their a story even that said Zhuge Liang can make Ghost away ...he was really respected as Guan Yu too.. Guan yu was title by many thing and amny Emperor they even call him Emperor and he neevr like being one in reality ...evenen God of Polices (in China) and of Jian Hu too
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Unread postby FengChu » Wed Aug 11, 2004 3:41 pm

You know if they made an anime out of YGZ's Zhuge Liang, it would actually be a pretty good show XD
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Unread postby Dong Zhou » Mon Apr 25, 2005 10:57 am

I agree that Kongming suffers from the fall when you look at his real record. So people go one extreme of hero worship to the other, insulting. Ididn't like how he took control of the army but he ran it pretty well and he was acivil genuis.

He not the only oneto suffer by the novel though
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Unread postby siaoyeh » Mon Mar 20, 2006 2:21 pm

Yes, Zhuge Liang is the most clever person in San Guo Ji..
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Unread postby Shi Tong » Tue Mar 28, 2006 11:29 am

I'm glad that this thread has been revived, since I didn't see it in the first place.

I think that Zhuge Liang was given these supernatural abilities to make him something more than anyone else could ever be.

Even though LGZ made those things up, I think it did make Zhuge Liang seem superhuman, especially to those in the past when people believed a little more in magic, this is very important because it means that while everyone else is just a human, Kongming is something greater than that.

I mean, you dont see people complaining about Gandalf in LoTR, he is anything but human, but we all see him as a hero.

One thing I think that LGZ could have done though is to make it clearer how clever Kongming was in terms of other achivements he had- Kongming made many important inventions, (Bao Zi, Zhuge Nu etc) and LGZ also made one of ZGL's inventions a magical makeover (for want of a better phrase) in that he made his wooden Oxen into magical mechanical beings. Surely, it was smart enough of ZGL to actually invent these things without the magic!!
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