The definitive guide to names and style names

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Unread postby Lady Wu » Fri Mar 25, 2005 5:55 am

Thanks, LBwG!

Women's section added.
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Unread postby Sun Gongli » Fri Mar 25, 2005 6:45 am

Excellent! I've always wondered about Sun Quan's daughters. What are the characters for their given names, if you don't mind? I can't seem to find them (I know the ones for the style names, of course.)

This brings up all sorts of questions I have about Zhou Ying, as well, but those are for a different discussion. A very interesting, knowledgable work on Chinese nomenclature.
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Fri Mar 25, 2005 6:54 am

Daughter 1: 孙鲁班,字大虎
Daughter 2: 孙鲁育,字小虎
(It's in Lady Bu's biography, SGZ Wu: 5---I suppose I should have put a footnote there.)

I have no idea how the names are linked to the style names, or what possessed Purple Beard to pick such awful names for his daughters (I don't think his mommy would have approved ;)).

Who/what is Zhou Ying?
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Unread postby Sun Gongli » Fri Mar 25, 2005 7:43 am

Zhou Yu's daughter. She's mentioned in the novel, but I don't know if there's a historical basis for her or not.

But the subject at hand is the research and work that went into your work, not my curiousity about a minimally related subject! ;)
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Fri Mar 25, 2005 4:21 pm

You know what, I have all sorts of questions regarding Zhou Yu's daughter as well. The only place where I could find her name is on the online SGYY (CHBT translation--I don't know if the original edition had it too). Moss Roberts doesn't have it, nor do the other 4 editions of SGYY in Chinese that I have. There is no mention of her name in SGZ either. Chen Shou only notes that she was married to Sun Deng, then Crown Prince.
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Unread postby Wei Shen » Mon Jul 11, 2005 8:51 pm

Excellent thread, answering almost all the questions I had when I signed up, thanks a lot!
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Unread postby Cao Chao » Mon Jun 04, 2007 3:47 pm

Tao Qian's Gongzu should be more 'honored ancestor' than 'honored grandparent.'

And for the other styles, I think that both characters combine to make a meaning, not just one or the other. For example, Fengxian could mean 'first to present,' acknowledging Lü Bu's ability and that of his horse.

I'm a little tired, I'll give my translations for the styles in a bit.
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Unread postby Lady Wu » Mon Jun 04, 2007 6:21 pm

Cao Chao wrote:Tao Qian's Gongzu should be more 'honored ancestor' than 'honored grandparent.'

And for the other styles, I think that both characters combine to make a meaning, not just one or the other. For example, Fengxian could mean 'first to present,' acknowledging Lü Bu's ability and that of his horse.

I'm a little tired, I'll give my translations for the styles in a bit.

Yes, in some styles the characters have to be taken together in interpretation, but during the 3K, the majority of styles still had just one contentful part. Many style names during the Spring and Autumn were still just one character, and the first two-character style names (think about the list of Confucius' students as they appear in the Analects, for example) had a generic character (子貢, 子淵, etc.).

Even by the 3K, the majority of styles were 子__ or 公__ or 君__, or containing a birth order indicator like 伯/孟/叔/季/幼__.

As for Lu Bu's style, I'm more inclined to interpret it as 供奉先祖, "honouring the ancestors", following the Han obsession with Confucian values (see also Guo Jia's style, 奉孝). I highly doubt it would refer to his prowess, as the name would have been given before he got Red Hare and became famous.
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Unread postby Shi Tong » Thu Jun 07, 2007 11:44 am

wow
伯/孟/叔/季/幼
can you explain a bit clearer, how are these pronounced (the first one is Bo, right?), and what do they signify?

Sorry, I think this thread is facinating, but specially this part!
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Unread postby Ricky » Thu Jun 07, 2007 12:27 pm

Wow thanks Lady Wu now I understand why Zhou Yu styled Gongjin. :shock:
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