Did Ma Chao deserve to be one of the Five Tigers?

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Do You think Ma Chao deserved to be ranked amoung Guan Yu, Zhao Zilong and the others?

Yea
155
70%
nope
67
30%
 
Total votes : 222

Re: Did Ma Chao deserve to be one of the Five Tigers?

Unread postby Cao Hong 14 » Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:28 am

Well historically speaking then I'd say so, yes. He did show some talent and charisma even though he isn't a top tier general he isn't a bottom tier one either. I do believe he was most likely in the top 5 best military commanders in Shu at the time he was appointed as one of the 5 Tiger Generals. If we are speaking novel wise then I would still personally believe it or not put Ma Dai or Wei Yan before Guan Yu as one of the 5 Tiger Generals(just in terms of success, not how high they were held in esteem)
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Re: Did Ma Chao deserve to be one of the Five Tigers?

Unread postby Striga » Wed Nov 09, 2011 2:08 am

I would argue that. Guan Yu had few successes and only became the Tiger General leader because he was Liu Bei’s brother. This may have been one of the few times Liu Bei misjudged a person, because Guan Yu proved more of a problem by having no real victories to his credit, and losing Jingzhou to his discredit. (they were made up by Luo Guanzhong based on his thoughts about them)
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Re: Did Ma Chao deserve to be one of the Five Tigers?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:46 am

However, his intelligence like that of Zhang Fei's and Guan Yu's may be questionable with his mistrust of Han Sui.


In fairness, distrust of the guy that fought for years against your father and doesn't have a history of disloyalty makes some sense.

Pang De was once his underling, and if Pang De received the respect of the all arrogant Guan Yu, then Ma Chao must have some ability or else Pang De would never have served him in the first place.


Pang De was an officer of his father so hard to tell how Pang De felt about Ma Chao himself. The officer of the father usually serves the son.
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Re: Did Ma Chao deserve to be one of the Five Tigers?

Unread postby Striga » Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:09 pm

Still, if you need his help, then you shouldn't go off and cut his hand. Didn't Pang De opt to remain with Ma Chao temporarily even as they fled from Cao Cao?
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Re: Did Ma Chao deserve to be one of the Five Tigers?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Nov 09, 2011 1:20 pm

Striga wrote:Still, if you need his help, then you shouldn't go off and cut his hand. Didn't Pang De opt to remain with Ma Chao temporarily even as they fled from Cao Cao?


The hand bit was a novel invention.

Yep.
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Re: Did Ma Chao deserve to be one of the Five Tigers?

Unread postby Striga » Wed Nov 09, 2011 6:03 pm

His staying with Ma Chao either means Ma Chao had some ability to himself that gained Pang De's respect, or Pang De was very loyal.
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Re: Did Ma Chao deserve to be one of the Five Tigers?

Unread postby Zhuanyong » Wed Nov 09, 2011 6:09 pm

Striga wrote:His staying with Ma Chao either means Ma Chao had some ability to himself that gained Pang De's respect, or Pang De was very loyal.


Historically, it appeared to be a combination of both. While I wouldn't say Pang De was the most loyal person of the era, he did show that he operated on a basis of loyalty. Ma Chao did have ability and was an able commander, though not the greatest. The two also had built a repoire with one another over time served together.
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Re: Did Ma Chao deserve to be one of the Five Tigers?

Unread postby Striga » Wed Nov 09, 2011 6:20 pm

I suppose his refusal to surrender was based on his disgust of Guan Yu's arrogance then, since normally, if given the chance to join an old friend is given through surrender, you'd expect the person to surrender. Or it may have been Cao Cao's question beforehand.
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Re: Did Ma Chao deserve to be one of the Five Tigers?

Unread postby Zhuanyong » Wed Nov 09, 2011 7:04 pm

We had a conversation about that in The Most Loyal thread here -- http://the-scholars.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=129&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=410
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Re: Did Ma Chao deserve to be one of the Five Tigers?

Unread postby PhoenixRising » Fri Mar 23, 2012 10:15 pm

Striga wrote:I like Huang Zhong only because he was old, but still showed a lot of power. Ma Chao was obviously quite able if he was able to send Cao Cao fleeing. However, his intelligence like that of Zhang Fei's and Guan Yu's may be questionable with his mistrust of Han Sui. Under Zhuge Liang, he mostly quelled the Qiangs, so he didn't show up again.
Pang De was once his underling, and if Pang De received the respect of the all arrogant Guan Yu, then Ma Chao must have some ability or else Pang De would never have served him in the first place.


Pang De is his father's officer. Of course he served Ma Chao. But after that, he leave Ma Chao.

Liu Bei will not easily choose Ma Chao as part of the five tigers if he didn't accomplish anything. But the question is what is his achievement?

I prefer 6 tigers than 5. Wei Yan should be one of them.
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