Did Ma Chao deserve to be one of the Five Tigers?

Best threads of the SGYYS, for your viewing pleasure.

Do You think Ma Chao deserved to be ranked amoung Guan Yu, Zhao Zilong and the others?

Yea
153
70%
nope
66
30%
 
Total votes : 219

Re: Did Ma Chao deserve to be one of the Five Tigers?

Unread postby Elitemsh » Sun Nov 06, 2011 4:50 pm

Shen Ai wrote:Ma Chao is overrated. What does he have but great devotion to a crazed cause before he defects. HE was fighting talent, that much is true, but his commanding skills were very lacking. He barely lived long enough to claim glory. He might have had he lived longer, but we will never know. I think Wei Yan should have been made one.


Ma Chao did achieve some impressive things as an indepedent force and he was capable of using strategy. He actually proposed a plan to Han Sui but it was dismissed. When Cao Cao heard about the strategy he was all the more fearful of Ma Chao.

Let us also not forget that Ma Chao, though he did suffer a number of defeats, almost annihilated Cao Cao. There is clear evidence of this in Xu Chu's SGZ. IMO, he was a bit like Guan Yu in that he had moments of excellence but then also numerous losses and failures. Still, I haven't come across anyone who overrates Ma Chao, just the opposite in fact. I can't help but like him though. He had the guts to protect his land against a very successful, experienced commander. Others will call him a traitor who caused his father's death and that's a fair view but i don't agree.
''I've never fought for anyone but myself. I've got no purpose in life. No ultimate goal. It's only when I'm cheating death on the battlefield. The only time I feel truly alive.'' ~Solid Snake
User avatar
Elitemsh
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1400
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 4:14 pm
Location: Outer Heaven

Re: Did Ma Chao deserve to be one of the Five Tigers?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sun Nov 06, 2011 7:28 pm

I think Ma Chao is too hated to be overrated in the western 3k history community. He gets quite a backlash for his part (however fairly or unfairly) for Ma Teng's death, something I have certainly been guilty of.

To be honest, find Ma Chao as a general as a rather difficult to place. He and the Qiang knew they didn't stand much chance against Cao Cao judging by their constant attempts at peace once the initial invasion had been done so hard to expect much. Ma Chao did get some successes in against Cao Cao and might have done better in a more even camapign, there was some talent there.
“You, are a rebellious son who abandoned his father. You are a cruel brigand who murdered his lord. How can Heaven and Earth put up with you for long? And unless you die soon, how can you face the sight of men?”
User avatar
Dong Zhou
A-Dou
A-Dou
 
Posts: 15059
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 12:32 pm
Location: "Now we must die. May Your Majesty maintain yourself"

Re: Did Ma Chao deserve to be one of the Five Tigers?

Unread postby Striga » Sun Nov 06, 2011 8:54 pm

Though he has few merits, his position based on birth gives him high honours, and he was close to the Qiang people. So if Guan Yu was one based on brotherhood, then Ma Chao can be one based on propaganda.
"Immense power is fun! You should try it sometime." -Syndra (favourite quote XD)
User avatar
Striga
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1050
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:23 pm
Location: Toronto, Ontario

Re: Did Ma Chao deserve to be one of the Five Tigers?

Unread postby Sun Fin » Tue Nov 08, 2011 3:00 pm

Elitemsh wrote:
Shen Ai wrote:Ma Chao is overrated. What does he have but great devotion to a crazed cause before he defects. HE was fighting talent, that much is true, but his commanding skills were very lacking. He barely lived long enough to claim glory. He might have had he lived longer, but we will never know. I think Wei Yan should have been made one.


Ma Chao did achieve some impressive things as an indepedent force and he was capable of using strategy. He actually proposed a plan to Han Sui but it was dismissed. When Cao Cao heard about the strategy he was all the more fearful of Ma Chao.

Let us also not forget that Ma Chao, though he did suffer a number of defeats, almost annihilated Cao Cao. There is clear evidence of this in Xu Chu's SGZ. IMO, he was a bit like Guan Yu in that he had moments of excellence but then also numerous losses and failures. Still, I haven't come across anyone who overrates Ma Chao, just the opposite in fact. I can't help but like him though. He had the guts to protect his land against a very successful, experienced commander. Others will call him a traitor who caused his father's death and that's a fair view but i don't agree.


Completely agree, there are very few in the 3K community that are willing to defend him against claims of ineptness whereas all the other generals have their champions!
“I learned that courage was not the absence of fear, but the triumph over it. The brave man is not he who does not feel afraid, but he who conquers that fear.” ― Nelson Mandela
User avatar
Sun Fin
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 6763
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2007 9:20 pm
Location: The birthplace of radio

Re: Did Ma Chao deserve to be one of the Five Tigers?

Unread postby Striga » Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:25 pm

But from this forum, though Ma Chao has few supporters, at least very few people are against him. Guan Yu has many supporters and many haters, Zhao Yun, Zhang Fei have multiple supporters and a few against them, and Huang Zhong has as little renown as Ma Chao. The number of supporters doesn't really matter. If Liu Bei had one good ability, it was the ability to tell the character of a person. Therefore, I support his choice of Ma Chao.
"Immense power is fun! You should try it sometime." -Syndra (favourite quote XD)
User avatar
Striga
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1050
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:23 pm
Location: Toronto, Ontario

Re: Did Ma Chao deserve to be one of the Five Tigers?

Unread postby Elitemsh » Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:37 pm

It's funny but Zhang Fei, despite his despicable personality, has very few haters. In fact i'm not sure anyone on this forum is against him. I can see why. Zhao Yun and Ma Chao have perhaps an even number of haters. Guan Yu, by far, has the most though. IMO all the tigers were talented in at least one department and should be given some common respect. I think sometimes people neglect to do this.
''I've never fought for anyone but myself. I've got no purpose in life. No ultimate goal. It's only when I'm cheating death on the battlefield. The only time I feel truly alive.'' ~Solid Snake
User avatar
Elitemsh
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1400
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 4:14 pm
Location: Outer Heaven

Re: Did Ma Chao deserve to be one of the Five Tigers?

Unread postby Sun Fin » Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:47 pm

Its the old problem. When they go from novel to history people over adjust their opinions of Guan Yu, Ma Cha, Zhao Yun, ZGL not being demi-gods and instead rate them as awful rather than competant, but falliable people.
“I learned that courage was not the absence of fear, but the triumph over it. The brave man is not he who does not feel afraid, but he who conquers that fear.” ― Nelson Mandela
User avatar
Sun Fin
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 6763
Joined: Sat Nov 10, 2007 9:20 pm
Location: The birthplace of radio

Re: Did Ma Chao deserve to be one of the Five Tigers?

Unread postby Striga » Tue Nov 08, 2011 8:51 pm

Actually, before the novel, I respected Guan Yu. With the novel, his arrogance and foolishness struck me much more than his ability and loyalty, making me a Guan Yu hater. Before the novel, I had no idea who Zhao Yun was, and afterward, I liked him quite a bit for his more-selfless personality, while I remained indifferent about Ma Chao and Huang Zhong. Zhang Fei was foolish, but still likable because of his smaller amount of arrogance.
"Immense power is fun! You should try it sometime." -Syndra (favourite quote XD)
User avatar
Striga
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1050
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:23 pm
Location: Toronto, Ontario

Re: Did Ma Chao deserve to be one of the Five Tigers?

Unread postby Shen Ai » Tue Nov 08, 2011 9:40 pm

I still respect Zhao Yun, Zhang Fei and Zhuge Liang, even after switching from novel to history. Guan Yu I have unnecessary hate for and that is wrong in a way. Ma Chao I just can't find myself liking in the novels or in history. I like Huang Zhong more than him. At least he was valuable to Shu.
I've a brave warrior in my army. Shen Ai is his name, and he can slay this Hua Xiong.

Wei has no more famous commanders, Shen Ai takes lead of the vanguard!

Even a commoner on the street knows what Shen Ai is thinking!
User avatar
Shen Ai
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1903
Joined: Sat Oct 29, 2011 11:21 pm
Location: That Place You've Been Dreaming Of

Re: Did Ma Chao deserve to be one of the Five Tigers?

Unread postby Striga » Tue Nov 08, 2011 11:38 pm

I like Huang Zhong only because he was old, but still showed a lot of power. Ma Chao was obviously quite able if he was able to send Cao Cao fleeing. However, his intelligence like that of Zhang Fei's and Guan Yu's may be questionable with his mistrust of Han Sui. Under Zhuge Liang, he mostly quelled the Qiangs, so he didn't show up again.
Pang De was once his underling, and if Pang De received the respect of the all arrogant Guan Yu, then Ma Chao must have some ability or else Pang De would never have served him in the first place.
"Immense power is fun! You should try it sometime." -Syndra (favourite quote XD)
User avatar
Striga
Scholar of Shen Zhou
 
Posts: 1050
Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2011 10:23 pm
Location: Toronto, Ontario

PreviousNext

Return to Sanguo Yanyi Symposium Archives

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

Copyright © 2002–2008 Kongming’s Archives. All Rights Reserved