Who is stronger, Wu or Shu?

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Re: Who is stronger, Wu or Shu?

Unread postby Li_Shengsun » Tue Jun 02, 2020 1:32 am

Dong Zhou wrote:Li, glad your doing well and in good humour during lockdown but some of the questions you ask and points you raise are covered by the bits you quote. Meanwhile your mocking me while seemingly misreading what I actually said.

Don't know if you want to have another quick look?


Nope, im not mocking you. But your statement sometimes contradicting on the statement you did previously. remember when i was stating i prefer being Wei thing? what you said there are completely different than what you stated here as if you giving too much credit toward the seemingly weak Wu state. I'm open for criticism as much as i like to criticizing other.

Yes, im gonna correcting my own statement here. After rereading the Zhuge Dan's rebellion thing. For Zhuge Dan to won against Sima Zhao is relatively small. In fact, it is close to zero. Sima Zhao just simply know Dan, the terrain and defense on Shouchun too well, to the point he's counting every part of Dan and Wu's move into his calculation.
Zhao not even attempting in breaching Shouchun's defense and plan to wait it out while encircling the castle, cutting their supply line. He's not even suffering from flooding that normally happen on the area, thx to Deng Ai's irrigation structure.
Seeing this spooked Sun Chen and making him to retreat from battlefield, handling over his command to Zhu Yi, the man he hate, simply just bc he want to create an opportunity to get rid of Zhu Yi if he made too much mistake here, to which in fact he did.

Jiang Ban and Jiao Yi's suggestion on trying to create an open line for them to retreat mightve been seen as good option, in fact, it is the best option ever presented, however, this option would've just buying a little time and in fact mightve put the whole Zhuge Dan's and Wu's men into much more dangerous situation. Retreating to the south mean Dan's would going to encounter Wang Ji and his men, he would get into a pincer attack.

Wen Qin's suggestion is kinda similar to what Chen Gong proposed to Lu Bu in time of Xiapi, it may worked, but then again, its just buying a little time, since they still trapped inbetween enemy territory (Wang Ji at Hefei, SimaZhao at Runan and Xiapi). I did mention about Sima Zhao know Dan too well, yes he did. This small victory meant nothing, he's prepared and he'll come back besiege Dan again. In the end, Dan's only option is to fight to the death or surrender.

Yes, i make mistake, hence why im open to criticism. :|
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Re: Who is stronger, Wu or Shu?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Jun 02, 2020 10:33 am

I'll be honest, I don't see the contradiction. It could have happened, this has been a long thread and it has certainly happened in the past. I have attempted to clarify with my response, I'm hoping that will help, if it still seems contradictory then please do talk me through it

On your new post, thanks for being open. I agree the chances for that initial camapign are small, if a "how does Zhuge Dan win" scenario what I'm tending to go for is an early win for Zhuge Dan and co as their best chance. Sima Zhao doesn't listen to Wang Ji's advice (since Sima Zhao has the advantages, he is going to need to err) or something like that and the allies able to punch hard before supplies become a problem. Once Sima Zhao encircles the city and Sun Chen effectively withdraws, it becomes a lot hader.

Where I do disagree with your recent post is I do think if the allies drive back Jin forces, an opening to some (if small) degree emerges due to the consequences for Sima Zhao to lose. Maybe not enough to turn around the odds but a glimmer of hope emerges as I don't think Sima Zhao could have come again for awhile as focus would be forced elsewhere and opportunities to strengthen their own position would probably come. Surviving the first battle is the tricky bit

Imperial in-laws or not, the evidence on real history the Quan DID defect to Jin though. So, is there a slightest bit of family ties there again? The fact they defect, and there was no telling whether Sun Chen do anything to their family there. So much for 'join a hopeless cause, lose everything and get our families slaughtered' statement you state below.

Here's the reason, since Quan are imperial in-laws. If Sun Chen would slaughter their family upon their defection, that would slaughter half of Sun families as well. What happen if Sun Chen do that? there would be a rebellion on each side, Wu would crumble so much faster than you thought. :wink:


Yes, I did acknowledge they defected to Jin. I did point out there is a difference between Jin and Zhuge Dan
Wei/Jin could offer all of them a lot for their valuable surrender when things got dire and their sacrifices, Zhuge Dan can offer them nothing and things aren't dire, situation is very different. The assumption the entire officer core would defect to someone who has nothing to offer them for the cost it would inflict on them seems to be very very stretching it.


It is noted within Lady Quan's SGZ that the defections of the Quan's hit the fortunates of the clan hard, there was an execution (family was also later killed but for a latter incident). Now Sun Chen did choose not to wipe out the Quan family (probably wisely), but if he had wanted to, he could do so without killing the Sun's (as Jin managed to find exceptions for Xun family members and Guo Huai's wife). They took a risk at what would happen to their families and while it didn't go as far as it could have done, the cost was still bad.

Now circumstances when they defected were dire and they went to a faction that could offer major rewards for that, your saying becuase they did so in those extreme circumstances then they will defect in less dire circumstances to a guy who can offer them nothing despite the potential costs to their family. I find that a stretch

I'm sorry im a bit at loss here. but what happen to your old statement that 'they (soldiers) only fight for their living, its not like they're gonna sacrifice their life in line'? sorry i couldn't put it into word correctly. even if the soldier didn't join, without commander, they would flee in disorganized fashion.


Still maintain. Like I said, I doubt Wu troops would respond to the defection with "let us join a hopeless cause, lose everything we have and get our families slaughtered." so it still applies. I'm not sure where the contradiction is?

The Wen family defecting would be a great boon for Zhuge Dan and a blow to Wu, just not to same lengths your arguing. Would the entire Wu troops run away when they had other senior officers there? Extremely unlikely.

This you gave so much credit on Sun Chen as if he was as resourceful as Sima Zhao.


I made no such comparison. Being able to rustle up an army is hardly the greatest act of political skill.

Also it was those at the time that made the claims Sun Chen could come back with an army, not me.

Lu Kang is advising Zhu Yi that time? :shock:
RIP Wu's best general and tactician of that age then, even with him on field, Zhu Yi still suffers three major defeat against Wang Ji. More evidence of Wu's crumbled dynasty (not me, you gave that away)


Lu Kang was only 31 and this is his first know miliatry camapign, hardly Wu's best general in that time and maybe expecting a bit much to reverse things. Wang Ji was in his 60's and an experienced general who knew the area

I'm hardly arguing Wu were at their peak as far as I'm aware?

Jin's unable to muster another major attack? this you're surely gave Wu so much credit while gave Jin a little credit of 'holding the major resource on the land'. Wu surely so strong indeed that Jin are too afraid to muster multiple major attack after suffering a little defeat in retaking one patch of land, they're most likely haunted by Zhou Yu it seems? :lol:

the fact that Sima Zhao's army is as much of triple size of Wu's on that siege, Wu's must've possess one heck of elite regime that even elite cavalry and trained soldiers of triple size that Jin has couldn't beat them.


Please reread what I said as to why Jin would not be well placed to try a major invasion after being driven back from Shouchun. Also the Zhou Yu thing and the way you phrased the last sentence comes across as mocking, just a heads up

Since speaking of Wu, given Sima Zhao did not follow on from his successes at Shouchun despite how badly Wu did, I'm not convinced that he would respond (even taking away the issue I put as to why Jin would not be in place to launch an invasion) with a mass invasion to a defeat. But the initial reason why I don't think Jin would invade remains the stronger one more then "didn't when succeeded, probably less likely when he failed"

Yes, it is evidencing by referencing your statement above. He's even much more clever than Lu Kang :wink:
Rip Yang Hu wary towards nobody.


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Re: Who is stronger, Wu or Shu?

Unread postby Li_Shengsun » Tue Jun 02, 2020 12:19 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:I'll be honest, I don't see the contradiction. It could have happened, this has been a long thread and it has certainly happened in the past. I have attempted to clarify with my response, I'm hoping that will help, if it still seems contradictory then please do talk me through it

On your new post, thanks for being open. I agree the chances for that initial camapign are small, if a "how does Zhuge Dan win" scenario what I'm tending to go for is an early win for Zhuge Dan and co as their best chance. Sima Zhao doesn't listen to Wang Ji's advice (since Sima Zhao has the advantages, he is going to need to err) or something like that and the allies able to punch hard before supplies become a problem. Once Sima Zhao encircles the city and Sun Chen effectively withdraws, it becomes a lot hader.

Where I do disagree with your recent post is I do think if the allies drive back Jin forces, an opening to some (if small) degree emerges due to the consequences for Sima Zhao to lose. Maybe not enough to turn around the odds but a glimmer of hope emerges as I don't think Sima Zhao could have come again for awhile as focus would be forced elsewhere and opportunities to strengthen their own position would probably come. Surviving the first battle is the tricky bit


Well, i did mention about that Sima Zhao knows Dan too well.
The moment Dan chooses to play the waiting game, that moment he lost his opportunity in fighting back, Sima Zhao know Zhuge Dan wouldn't risk an open war against him, this is what Zhao thinks of the advantage.
The moment Dan chooses defensive approach, is the moment all opportunity of him to escape or fight are lost, his supply line were cut, more Jin reinforcement coming everyday.
Zhao knows Dan are prideful, he dont want to risk an open battle because he prepared supplies for "his" men to defend the cities within a year, but Dan didn't count Wu's armies that joined in the defense into his calculation, this was one of Dan's great disadvantage.
Zhao knows Dan are stubborn, once Dan chooses his option, he'll stubbornly defended it, to the point he got into conflict with his own general (Jiao Yi and Jiang Ban) and even Wen Qin to much extend. Since Wen Qin advises Dan to send "his" men into battle rather than "wu's" men.
With this alone, i don't think Zhao need to heed Wang Ji's advise too much. In fact he doesn't need to, since his opponent is fighting against themselves for him.

though I know why Wen Qin advises such thing, the Wu's men already exhausted in their attempt to enter the castle, while Dan's men are still fit and well. Note when Wen Qin and other arrive, the encirclement are almost done, they had to fought hard in order to enter Shouchun to help him. Dan, who was rather not in good term with Qin, seen this as an attempt to 'thin' his men down in order for Wu to seize his castle.

There's no hope for Dan to won if this was the case.

Yes, I did acknowledge they defected to Jin. I did point out there is a difference between Jin and Zhuge Dan
Wei/Jin could offer all of them a lot for their valuable surrender when things got dire and their sacrifices, Zhuge Dan can offer them nothing and things aren't dire, situation is very different. The assumption the entire officer core would defect to someone who has nothing to offer them for the cost it would inflict on them seems to be very very stretching it.


It is noted within Lady Quan's SGZ that the defections of the Quan's hit the fortunates of the clan hard, there was an execution (family was also later killed but for a latter incident). Now Sun Chen did choose not to wipe out the Quan family (probably wisely), but if he had wanted to, he could do so without killing the Sun's (as Jin managed to find exceptions for Xun family members and Guo Huai's wife). They took a risk at what would happen to their families and while it didn't go as far as it could have done, the cost was still bad.

Now circumstances when they defected were dire and they went to a faction that could offer major rewards for that, your saying becuase they did so in those extreme circumstances then they will defect in less dire circumstances to a guy who can offer them nothing despite the potential costs to their family. I find that a stretch


Okay, i didn't thought of making such exception thing. my bad. :|


This you gave so much credit on Sun Chen as if he was as resourceful as Sima Zhao.


I made no such comparison. Being able to rustle up an army is hardly the greatest act of political skill.

Also it was those at the time that made the claims Sun Chen could come back with an army, not me.


He could, but that would took time, the wu armies was already mounted. like 300 thousand large. to mount another large number would take months even almost a year before they ready for battle. moreoverly, it'll took too much cost in raising such number of troop, we did learn how it goes with Jiang Wei. Sun Chen strikes me as a type that would save his face, he will not mount another attack, at least until he knows that the 300 thousand men could fought Jin's forces that more or less twice as large than them.

Lu Kang was only 31 and this is his first know miliatry camapign, hardly Wu's best general in that time and maybe expecting a bit much to reverse things. Wang Ji was in his 60's and an experienced general who knew the area

I'm hardly arguing Wu were at their peak as far as I'm aware?


Nah, im hardly convince that was the case. and i dont think Lu Kang would likely to left Jing for too long, Yang Hu are too much of a threat. in fact, if you mention about advising, prolly he just sending a messenger to Zhu Yi, that would make the whole advising thing wrong since he isn't there, therefore hard for Lu kang to grasp the whole situation. It also probability that Ding Feng and Zhu Yi get careless therefore got exploited by Wang Ji, well nobodies perfect after all.

-Edit- btw, Lu Xun is also on his twenties when he defeat Liu Bei's men at Xiaoting, so i dont think age is matters.

Please reread what I said as to why Jin would not be well placed to try a major invasion after being driven back from Shouchun. Also the Zhou Yu thing and the way you phrased the last sentence comes across as mocking, just a heads up

Since speaking of Wu, given Sima Zhao did not follow on from his successes at Shouchun despite how badly Wu did, I'm not convinced that he would respond (even taking away the issue I put as to why Jin would not be in place to launch an invasion) with a mass invasion to a defeat. But the initial reason why I don't think Jin would invade remains the stronger one more then "didn't when succeeded, probably less likely when he failed"


Welp, sorry, seems that my jokes were a little bit too far i guess. :|

there was also mention at the beginning of Dan's rebellion that Zhao called his trusted adviser Yu Song to capital for an advise. Yu Song mention about to muster their whole forces into defeating Jiang Wei while just being in defense against Wu, since Wu would retreat if they lost their momentum. So im assuming, that bulk of Jin's forces are concentrated on Shu rather than Wu. Meaning, the Jin's forces that were gone besieging Dan and repelling Wu aren't their full forces. I think thats why Sima Zhao did not do the follow up attack on Wu's land after his victory and goes on defense after, since he know it would take time for Wu to mount another attack and he knows that Wu would start to fighting among themselves.
In fact, it gone like what Zhao thinks as Wu immediately falls into turmoil among themselves, enough time for Jin to launch a conquest on Shu. :|

You have to admit, Shouchun and Hefei defenses are too perfect, that Wu never had much success in penetrating its defenses. Why attack when Jin are not on full strength? the defense on both castle are strong enough to hold many of Wu attacks.

-Edit- i should made a correction of myself. It wasn't Wang Ji who defeats Zhu Yi, Ding Feng and most of incoming Wu thats on the outside. He's just the commander. it was Shi Bao, Hu Lie and Chen Qian who defeats them. to much extend Hu Lie who burned Wu's supplies that was under Zhu Yi that time, ultimately destroyed Wu's morale.
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Re: Who is stronger, Wu or Shu?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Jun 06, 2020 5:22 pm

Well, i did mention about that Sima Zhao knows Dan too well.
The moment Dan chooses to play the waiting game, that moment he lost his opportunity in fighting back, Sima Zhao know Zhuge Dan wouldn't risk an open war against him, this is what Zhao thinks of the advantage.
The moment Dan chooses defensive approach, is the moment all opportunity of him to escape or fight are lost, his supply line were cut, more Jin reinforcement coming everyday.
Zhao knows Dan are prideful, he dont want to risk an open battle because he prepared supplies for "his" men to defend the cities within a year, but Dan didn't count Wu's armies that joined in the defense into his calculation, this was one of Dan's great disadvantage.
Zhao knows Dan are stubborn, once Dan chooses his option, he'll stubbornly defended it, to the point he got into conflict with his own general (Jiao Yi and Jiang Ban) and even Wen Qin to much extend. Since Wen Qin advises Dan to send "his" men into battle rather than "wu's" men.
With this alone, i don't think Zhao need to heed Wang Ji's advise too much. In fact he doesn't need to, since his opponent is fighting against themselves for him.

though I know why Wen Qin advises such thing, the Wu's men already exhausted in their attempt to enter the castle, while Dan's men are still fit and well. Note when Wen Qin and other arrive, the encirclement are almost done, they had to fought hard in order to enter Shouchun to help him. Dan, who was rather not in good term with Qin, seen this as an attempt to 'thin' his men down in order for Wu to seize his castle.

There's no hope for Dan to won if this was the case.


I'm not sure it was lost, if Jin made mistakes in the build up to the siege, the allies might have been able to win. I agree Dan miscalculated with supplies and once the siege got intense, with his management of his officers. However without good choices by Jin (including Wang Ji ignoring orders) such a situation might never have arrived.

I think Wen Qin was more feeling slighted by Jiang Bin's suggestion about Wu troops and was confident a defensive strategy was the way forward (then felt the defections meant Jin forces would be too relaxed) and Zhuge Dan did listen to Wen Qin.

I do think you well argued your point though

Okay, i didn't thought of making such exception thing. my bad.


We have all been there, don't worry

He could, but that would took time, the wu armies was already mounted. like 300 thousand large. to mount another large number would take months even almost a year before they ready for battle. moreoverly, it'll took too much cost in raising such number of troop, we did learn how it goes with Jiang Wei. Sun Chen strikes me as a type that would save his face, he will not mount another attack, at least until he knows that the 300 thousand men could fought Jin's forces that more or less twice as large than them.


See, normally I would agree with you. Such a defeat takes time to rebuild (year probably stretching it) but Jin and Zhuge Dan forces clearly both felt Sun Chen still had the resources within Wu to make a second attempt if he wished it. Jin more felt Sun Chen wouldn't come unless an opportunity arose (and if Zhuge Dan wins, that is an opportunity) rather he couldn't

Jiang Wei was more year in year out of 100,000 again and again that was damaging. One or two big defeats a state like Shu and Wu could take, even in quick succession.

Nah, im hardly convince that was the case. and i dont think Lu Kang would likely to left Jing for too long, Yang Hu are too much of a threat. in fact, if you mention about advising, prolly he just sending a messenger to Zhu Yi, that would make the whole advising thing wrong since he isn't there, therefore hard for Lu kang to grasp the whole situation. It also probability that Ding Feng and Zhu Yi get careless therefore got exploited by Wang Ji, well nobodies perfect after all.

-Edit- btw, Lu Xun is also on his twenties when he defeat Liu Bei's men at Xiaoting, so i dont think age is matters.


Lu Kang wasn't in charge of Jing till two years later and as far as I can tell, Yang Hu wasn't in Jing area at the time but held clerical position at court. According to Lu Kang's SGZ, Lu Kang fought in this camapign and was promoted for his efforts there

In terms of the Lu Xun comparison, Lu Xun was around 39 at time of Yiling and unlike Lu Kang at Shouchun, Lu Xun had noted miliatry expirence in the south and a senior figure in taking of Jing before Yiling. This was Lu Kang's first noted battle.

Welp, sorry, seems that my jokes were a little bit too far i guess. :|

there was also mention at the beginning of Dan's rebellion that Zhao called his trusted adviser Yu Song to capital for an advise. Yu Song mention about to muster their whole forces into defeating Jiang Wei while just being in defense against Wu, since Wu would retreat if they lost their momentum. So im assuming, that bulk of Jin's forces are concentrated on Shu rather than Wu. Meaning, the Jin's forces that were gone besieging Dan and repelling Wu aren't their full forces. I think thats why Sima Zhao did not do the follow up attack on Wu's land after his victory and goes on defense after, since he know it would take time for Wu to mount another attack and he knows that Wu would start to fighting among themselves.
In fact, it gone like what Zhao thinks as Wu immediately falls into turmoil among themselves, enough time for Jin to launch a conquest on Shu. :|

You have to admit, Shouchun and Hefei defenses are too perfect, that Wu never had much success in penetrating its defenses. Why attack when Jin are not on full strength? the defense on both castle are strong enough to hold many of Wu attacks.

-Edit- i should made a correction of myself. It wasn't Wang Ji who defeats Zhu Yi, Ding Feng and most of incoming Wu thats on the outside. He's just the commander. it was Shi Bao, Hu Lie and Chen Qian who defeats them. to much extend Hu Lie who burned Wu's supplies that was under Zhu Yi that time, ultimately destroyed Wu's morale.



Sorry, I had a bad week and I think that made me snappy on humour. My apologies

I think Yu Song was Zhuge Ke during time of Sima Shi? If you have one about Zhuge Dan, do you know where you found it. Zhuge Dan being the secondary front would be counter to every version of that camapign I have seen, troop sizes (even if they themselves aren't reliable), gathering troops from four provinces and the capital troops, use of officers and where Sima Zhao himself went (plus the Dowager/Emperor coming with). Jiang Wei did attack during that time but the local commanders Sima Wang and Deng Ai dealt with it without resorting to capital troops

Having a look at the ZZTJ again, Sima Zhao did consider a follow on attack but Wang Ji advised against, using the examples of Zhuge Ke and Jiang Wei who won great victories then followed up with bad defeats by pressing on. So I'm wrong on the "since they didn't invade anyway when successful" due to the reasoning of Wang Ji doesn't apply if they lost. Your right that Wu did fall into turmoil but by the time Sima Zhao launched his invasion of Shu in 264, Wu had settled down from the coups and counter coups to the stable (if poor) reign of Sun Xiu so the connection wasn't so much there.

Well Shouchun did fall to Jin so not perfect, in the right circumstances it could be taken. Hefei was a very strong barrier and Wu's ability to take Yang province was very limited due to the defences, climate, supply lines and that Wei tended to defend it well, not making too many errors that would allow Wu an opening

Fair enough but it was also Wang Ji's strategy that also proved key
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Re: Who is stronger, Wu or Shu?

Unread postby LordSheezy » Mon Jun 08, 2020 2:15 pm

If I have to say, they're about equal in terms of strength. Neither kingdoms were able to gain any significant momentum or territory whenever they invaded Wei. All major territorial gains both Kingdoms obtained, they lost them quickly due to critical tactical blunders (Ma Su'l and Zhuge Ke's arrogance cost them dearly)

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Re: Who is stronger, Wu or Shu?

Unread postby Li_Shengsun » Thu Jun 11, 2020 4:18 am

Dong Zhou wrote:I'm not sure it was lost, if Jin made mistakes in the build up to the siege, the allies might have been able to win. I agree Dan miscalculated with supplies and once the siege got intense, with his management of his officers. However without good choices by Jin (including Wang Ji ignoring orders) such a situation might never have arrived.

I think Wen Qin was more feeling slighted by Jiang Bin's suggestion about Wu troops and was confident a defensive strategy was the way forward (then felt the defections meant Jin forces would be too relaxed) and Zhuge Dan did listen to Wen Qin.

I do think you well argued your point though


Well, normally i would agree with opportunity may arise thing. If only Zhuge Dan was a careful type of man, he would consider stocking more supplies enough even to the allies that come to help him, yea. There were many things that would go wrong in prolonged campaign.


See, normally I would agree with you. Such a defeat takes time to rebuild (year probably stretching it) but Jin and Zhuge Dan forces clearly both felt Sun Chen still had the resources within Wu to make a second attempt if he wished it. Jin more felt Sun Chen wouldn't come unless an opportunity arose (and if Zhuge Dan wins, that is an opportunity) rather he couldn't

Jiang Wei was more year in year out of 100,000 again and again that was damaging. One or two big defeats a state like Shu and Wu could take, even in quick succession.


well, i kinda agree with you.

Lu Kang wasn't in charge of Jing till two years later and as far as I can tell, Yang Hu wasn't in Jing area at the time but held clerical position at court. According to Lu Kang's SGZ, Lu Kang fought in this camapign and was promoted for his efforts there

In terms of the Lu Xun comparison, Lu Xun was around 39 at time of Yiling and unlike Lu Kang at Shouchun, Lu Xun had noted miliatry expirence in the south and a senior figure in taking of Jing before Yiling. This was Lu Kang's first noted battle


I see. Well, i kinda messed with age thing. but then again, south? you mean dealing with incursion caused by tribesmen and rebels. thats hardly an experience. especially when dealing against a large number of experienced army. the gap of difference between Lu Xun and his son are clearly seen here.

Sorry, I had a bad week and I think that made me snappy on humour. My apologies

I think Yu Song was Zhuge Ke during time of Sima Shi? If you have one about Zhuge Dan, do you know where you found it. Zhuge Dan being the secondary front would be counter to every version of that camapign I have seen, troop sizes (even if they themselves aren't reliable), gathering troops from four provinces and the capital troops, use of officers and where Sima Zhao himself went (plus the Dowager/Emperor coming with). Jiang Wei did attack during that time but the local commanders Sima Wang and Deng Ai dealt with it without resorting to capital troops

Having a look at the ZZTJ again, Sima Zhao did consider a follow on attack but Wang Ji advised against, using the examples of Zhuge Ke and Jiang Wei who won great victories then followed up with bad defeats by pressing on. So I'm wrong on the "since they didn't invade anyway when successful" due to the reasoning of Wang Ji doesn't apply if they lost. Your right that Wu did fall into turmoil but by the time Sima Zhao launched his invasion of Shu in 264, Wu had settled down from the coups and counter coups to the stable (if poor) reign of Sun Xiu so the connection wasn't so much there.

Well Shouchun did fall to Jin so not perfect, in the right circumstances it could be taken. Hefei was a very strong barrier and Wu's ability to take Yang province was very limited due to the defences, climate, supply lines and that Wei tended to defend it well, not making too many errors that would allow Wu an opening

Fair enough but it was also Wang Ji's strategy that also proved key


Ah, crap, i mixed the whole Sima thing again. When you mention about to not follow up attack, the Yu Song advise comes up on my mind, but i dont remember to which Sima he advising that time. My bad.

But then again, since Sima Shi agreed to Yu Song's policy. I think Sima Zhao would likely to follow the same. I mean, Wu are hardly a threat after all. Different from Jiang Wei and to much extend Di Qiang tribes. Liang Province were never been in full grasp even at time of Cao Cao. There were too many incursion there one after another, Jiang Wei even adding more damage to it by emptying the Han population on that area after his victory against Wei at Didao. The incursion even get much worse after the fall of Shu, starting with Tufa Shujineng and his clans the 1st who pulls strings of rebellion until the time of Shi Le and Fu Jian.

No, Shouchun and Hefei are perfect, ever since Shouchun and Hefei falls at the hands of Cao Cao, the castle never falls to the enemy hands even once, it only falls because of the inside rebellion. Yuan Shu are a dullard, he didn't know how to use his castle properly. Jin are Wei though, its just a transition of dynasty to another. SimaZhao and his men are Wei people, they know how to breach the castle since they knew the defense from inside out.
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Re: Who is stronger, Wu or Shu?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Mon Jun 15, 2020 11:03 am

Well, normally i would agree with opportunity may arise thing. If only Zhuge Dan was a careful type of man, he would consider stocking more supplies enough even to the allies that come to help him, yea. There were many things that would go wrong in prolonged campaign.


Agreed. One thing Jin tended to be good about was preventing opportunities from really arising or shutting them down quickly when they did

well, i kinda agree with you.


Thanks

I see. Well, i kinda messed with age thing. but then again, south? you mean dealing with incursion caused by tribesmen and rebels. thats hardly an experience. especially when dealing against a large number of experienced army. the gap of difference between Lu Xun and his son are clearly seen here.


Sorry when I say noted, I meant deeds recorded, got promoted, beat a bigger army. I should not have used the term noted though, I agree. It was gaining expirence, it is one thing knowing the theories of war and handling an army in camp, it is another being able to use it effectively, fighting battle. Many Wu officers earned their first expirence fighting the Shanyue then got moved onto bigger things.

We do agree on the experience gap so yay

Ah, crap, i mixed the whole Sima thing again. When you mention about to not follow up attack, the Yu Song advise comes up on my mind, but i dont remember to which Sima he advising that time. My bad.

But then again, since Sima Shi agreed to Yu Song's policy. I think Sima Zhao would likely to follow the same. I mean, Wu are hardly a threat after all. Different from Jiang Wei and to much extend Di Qiang tribes. Liang Province were never been in full grasp even at time of Cao Cao. There were too many incursion there one after another, Jiang Wei even adding more damage to it by emptying the Han population on that area after his victory against Wei at Didao. The incursion even get much worse after the fall of Shu, starting with Tufa Shujineng and his clans the 1st who pulls strings of rebellion until the time of Shi Le and Fu Jian.


No problem at all.

There isn't evidence of reinforcements under Sima Zhao, just the local commanders. Ok for this occasion, bare in mind I'm saying what the number said, I'm not taking these numbers literally but the general gist of 200,000 soldiers would signafy big army and bigger then tens of thousands

Sima Shi vs Zhuge Ke (plus Jiang Wei): Jin (or Wei) forces had just lost to Wu and Shi had to demote his own brother while Shi had to apologize for a mistaken policy in the north-west so things were shaky. Zhuge Ke had just got a great victory and was coming with supposedly 200,000 troops. Jiang Wei was first time as Cic at same time had tens of thousands under him

Sima Shi sent 200,000 (supposedly) under his own relative Sima Fu against Zhuge Ke. Yu Song then advises neither are a major threat (due to Zhuge Ke's choice of strategy as has numbers to cause great damage and Jiang Wei lacks supplies while is not expecting a counter-attack), the forces of the Guangzhong region (which unless had become a spectacularly populated area, unlikely to be 200,000 and not using capital troops during this invasion) under the regional commanders to reinforce Didao and force Jiang Wei to retreat. On this occasion, Sima Shi doesn't take to the field as agrees with Yu Song about Zhuge Ke's limited intentions

So Wu had "well this guy would be a threat if he used his forces better", larger forces and 200,000 sent to secure against him, one had "will vanish with counter-attack" and the entire local forces against him. Your calculation is the one where less troops were used, less troops were sent, and where battle wasn't expected to occur was the bigger threat?

Sima Zhao vs Zhuge Dan: Zhuge Dan pressed into revolt earlier then planned, Sima Zhao's first camapign post his brother and needs a win. Given the Sima's weren't idiots, they must have known both Wu and Shu would try to take advantage of this even before Dan sent hostage to Wu. Zhuge Dan collected the forces of Yang that were said to be 40-50 thousand, Wu send Quan family with forces of 30,0000 as first wave. Sima Zhao personally takes the field rather then hold himself back for Shu and brings over 200,000 men including capital troops, Jing and Xu, for Wu Zhu Yi arrives with 30,000 troops as a second wave. When Zhu Yi is defeated, Wu sends another wave of 50,000 while Sun Lin led a large army of undetermined amount.

Jiang Wei, who had taken a reputation hit with recent defeats, leads tens of thousands against poor defended supply store but local commander Sima Wang, commander of Yong and Liang, and Deng Ai led their troops. ZZTJ doesn't give number but one doubts two border region troops are more then Sima Zhao's large force. At no point does Sima Zhao extract himself from the war with Zhuge Dan, leaving Wang Ji or someone else in charge, to face Jiang Wei nor did Sima Zhao delay going against Zhuge Dan and Wu in case needed against Shu.

The only bit I agree with you on is that the loss of grip in places like Liang and Bing was a long term problem that got neglected due to the civil war. However Jiang Wei was not the major threat. Nor was Shu. Wu was. Wu had the numbers and Wei certainly considered them the bigger threat, the southern border is where Cao Pi, Cao Rui, Sima Shi and Sima Zhao personally led armies into battle, never against Shu. It is where the troop numbers were sent time after time, it is where the major defensive infrastructure structure plans were made under Cao Pi (though he died before they were carried out) and Cao Rui.

You point to two double invasions (as it were, you can phrase the camapigns diffirently but both Wu and Shu sent forces into traditional Wei lands). In each, the bigger army was sent against Wu. In each, the major focus of the higher ups was against Wu. Sima Shi sat out the invasions himself and would fight Wu later but Sima Zhao chose to lead his forces against Wu. Not Shu.

It would have been bizarre logic for the Cao's and Sima's to have gone "our big threat is Shu. So we will send less troops, spend less major infrastructure defence changes, we will never send our Emperor/ruling figure against the biggest threat we face but spend our money, capital and resources defending against the smaller threat". If the numbers, the attention, the major defence spending, the personal appearance of the ruling figure is all against one kingdom... that would indicate that kingdom was seen as the bigger problem. If facing two threats, you put your resources against the bigger threat, the one your more worried about.

No, Shouchun and Hefei are perfect, ever since Shouchun and Hefei falls at the hands of Cao Cao, the castle never falls to the enemy hands even once, it only falls because of the inside rebellion. Yuan Shu are a dullard, he didn't know how to use his castle properly. Jin are Wei though, its just a transition of dynasty to another. SimaZhao and his men are Wei people, they know how to breach the castle since they knew the defense from inside out.


Yuan Shu I don't think technically lost it to invasion (though he gained it via forcing the defender to flee), more general lost control. Problem is your going it is perfect then having to go all the times it got lost somehow doesn't count. If it lost, can't be a perfect defence becuase it could be breached.

Hefei was changed once due to not being perfect and Man Chong then considered abandoning his master piece, he knew it could be taken. Wei reinforced the defenders during times of siege becuase they knew it could be taken. Deng Ai's reforms in the Shouchun area were due to damage inflicted by Wu, three revolts at Shouchun failed. Shouchun fell a few times in the periods of disunity to follow judging by my glance at William Cromwell's work on the city

They are strong defences, particularly once figures like Liu Fu, Man Chong and Deng Ai fixed problems in them but defences were not perfect, it could be taken if the defenders made mistakes or the invading force became strong enough. Not perfect
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Re: Who is stronger, Wu or Shu?

Unread postby Li_Shengsun » Tue Jun 16, 2020 4:19 am

Dong Zhou wrote:Sorry when I say noted, I meant deeds recorded, got promoted, beat a bigger army. I should not have used the term noted though, I agree. It was gaining expirence, it is one thing knowing the theories of war and handling an army in camp, it is another being able to use it effectively, fighting battle. Many Wu officers earned their first expirence fighting the Shanyue then got moved onto bigger things.

We do agree on the experience gap so yay


okay

There isn't evidence of reinforcements under Sima Zhao, just the local commanders. Ok for this occasion, bare in mind I'm saying what the number said, I'm not taking these numbers literally but the general gist of 200,000 soldiers would signafy big army and bigger then tens of thousands

Sima Shi vs Zhuge Ke (plus Jiang Wei): Jin (or Wei) forces had just lost to Wu and Shi had to demote his own brother while Shi had to apologize for a mistaken policy in the north-west so things were shaky. Zhuge Ke had just got a great victory and was coming with supposedly 200,000 troops. Jiang Wei was first time as Cic at same time had tens of thousands under him

Sima Shi sent 200,000 (supposedly) under his own relative Sima Fu against Zhuge Ke. Yu Song then advises neither are a major threat (due to Zhuge Ke's choice of strategy as has numbers to cause great damage and Jiang Wei lacks supplies while is not expecting a counter-attack), the forces of the Guangzhong region (which unless had become a spectacularly populated area, unlikely to be 200,000 and not using capital troops during this invasion) under the regional commanders to reinforce Didao and force Jiang Wei to retreat. On this occasion, Sima Shi doesn't take to the field as agrees with Yu Song about Zhuge Ke's limited intentions

So Wu had "well this guy would be a threat if he used his forces better", larger forces and 200,000 sent to secure against him, one had "will vanish with counter-attack" and the entire local forces against him. Your calculation is the one where less troops were used, less troops were sent, and where battle wasn't expected to occur was the bigger threat?

Sima Zhao vs Zhuge Dan: Zhuge Dan pressed into revolt earlier then planned, Sima Zhao's first camapign post his brother and needs a win. Given the Sima's weren't idiots, they must have known both Wu and Shu would try to take advantage of this even before Dan sent hostage to Wu. Zhuge Dan collected the forces of Yang that were said to be 40-50 thousand, Wu send Quan family with forces of 30,0000 as first wave. Sima Zhao personally takes the field rather then hold himself back for Shu and brings over 200,000 men including capital troops, Jing and Xu, for Wu Zhu Yi arrives with 30,000 troops as a second wave. When Zhu Yi is defeated, Wu sends another wave of 50,000 while Sun Lin led a large army of undetermined amount.

Jiang Wei, who had taken a reputation hit with recent defeats, leads tens of thousands against poor defended supply store but local commander Sima Wang, commander of Yong and Liang, and Deng Ai led their troops. ZZTJ doesn't give number but one doubts two border region troops are more then Sima Zhao's large force. At no point does Sima Zhao extract himself from the war with Zhuge Dan, leaving Wang Ji or someone else in charge, to face Jiang Wei nor did Sima Zhao delay going against Zhuge Dan and Wu in case needed against Shu.

The only bit I agree with you on is that the loss of grip in places like Liang and Bing was a long term problem that got neglected due to the civil war. However Jiang Wei was not the major threat. Nor was Shu. Wu was. Wu had the numbers and Wei certainly considered them the bigger threat, the southern border is where Cao Pi, Cao Rui, Sima Shi and Sima Zhao personally led armies into battle, never against Shu. It is where the troop numbers were sent time after time, it is where the major defensive infrastructure structure plans were made under Cao Pi (though he died before they were carried out) and Cao Rui.

You point to two double invasions (as it were, you can phrase the camapigns diffirently but both Wu and Shu sent forces into traditional Wei lands). In each, the bigger army was sent against Wu. In each, the major focus of the higher ups was against Wu. Sima Shi sat out the invasions himself and would fight Wu later but Sima Zhao chose to lead his forces against Wu. Not Shu.

It would have been bizarre logic for the Cao's and Sima's to have gone "our big threat is Shu. So we will send less troops, spend less major infrastructure defence changes, we will never send our Emperor/ruling figure against the biggest threat we face but spend our money, capital and resources defending against the smaller threat". If the numbers, the attention, the major defence spending, the personal appearance of the ruling figure is all against one kingdom... that would indicate that kingdom was seen as the bigger problem. If facing two threats, you put your resources against the bigger threat, the one your more worried about.


Well, keep in mind that there were so many skilled generals placed to guard the northwest area of Chang An, like Chen Tai, Deng Ai, and others. I don't think Sima Zhao needed to command personally to repel Jiang Wei's attack. Moreover, Jiang Wei is... well, maybe I should say, a careless man. So, of course, he would focus more on Wu. It's not like because Wu is a bigger threat, it's true that Wu has the number, but without skilled generals to command them, they're useless.

Btw, you seem skipped the part where Wen Qin and his group entered the castle? I remember it was written somewhere that the number of Zhuge Dan's and Wu's army inside Shouchun combined is 150.000 strong.

Well, normally focusing more on the stronger kingdom would be the case. But, looking at Jin's distribution of general and resources, both were placed equal I guess.

Hefei was changed once due to not being perfect and Man Chong then considered abandoning his master piece, he knew it could be taken. Wei reinforced the defenders during times of siege becuase they knew it could be taken. Deng Ai's reforms in the Shouchun area were due to damage inflicted by Wu, three revolts at Shouchun failed. Shouchun fell a few times in the periods of disunity to follow judging by my glance at William Cromwell's work on the city

They are strong defences, particularly once figures like Liu Fu, Man Chong and Deng Ai fixed problems in them but defences were not perfect, it could be taken if the defenders made mistakes or the invading force became strong enough. Not perfect


Deng Ai's irrigation structure was made due to the damage incurred by Wu? wasn't it bc there were too many flooding on those areas that preventing Wei's best fortes to mobilize against the invading Wu?
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Re: Who is stronger, Wu or Shu?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Tue Jun 23, 2020 6:03 pm

Sorry for late reply, kept meaning to and then stuff happened :oops:

Well, keep in mind that there were so many skilled generals placed to guard the northwest area of Chang An, like Chen Tai, Deng Ai, and others. I don't think Sima Zhao needed to command personally to repel Jiang Wei's attack. Moreover, Jiang Wei is... well, maybe I should say, a careless man. So, of course, he would focus more on Wu. It's not like because Wu is a bigger threat, it's true that Wu has the number, but without skilled generals to command them, they're useless.


Yes, after Xiahou Mao's brief spell, Wei and then Jin put skilled generals on the Shu border. As they did on all four/three (once Gongsun were conquered) fronts they had to defend.

Yes becuase Jiang Wei was less of a threat even leaving aside his tendency to mess up his own victories.

I don't understand what your doing for here I'm afraid. You argue Jiang Wei being careless would undermine him, you admit Sima Zhao doesn't need to be against Shu so of course he would focus on Wu... then don't say why? If not becuase Wu with their talent and numbers were the biggest threat as everything Wei and Jin did would seem to indicate, then why? I'm missing the connection your trying to make

Wu had skilled generals in the field and leaders at Shouchun, there commander was poor but this was his first major camapign off the top of my head so difficult for Jin to calculate.

Btw, you seem skipped the part where Wen Qin and his group entered the castle? I remember it was written somewhere that the number of Zhuge Dan's and Wu's army inside Shouchun combined is 150.000 strong.

Well, normally focusing more on the stronger kingdom would be the case. But, looking at Jin's distribution of general and resources, both were placed equal I guess.


My reading of the ZZTJ was the Quan 30,000 troops but I may be wrong, my apologies.

The resources where Jin and Wei both put more against Wu? There doesn't seem to be any particular focus either way with their generals which would be sensible, keep them spread across all 3/4 fronts so you don't end up with disaster.

Deng Ai's irrigation structure was made due to the damage incurred by Wu? wasn't it bc there were too many flooding on those areas that preventing Wei's best fortes to mobilize against the invading Wu?


Cromwell connects it with Quan Cong breaking the dams of Quebi and that the destruction destroying the functioning of the agricultural garrisons in the area
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