Who is stronger, Wu or Shu?

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Re: Who is stronger, Wu or Shu?

Unread postby Li_Shengsun » Fri Mar 06, 2020 1:42 am

Dong Zhou wrote:Your somewhat splitters hair. Wu and Shu both sent reinforcements to Meng Da and Zhuge Liang timed his invasion to be around Meng Da's planned revolt, your discounting Wu's for doing the same thing but not discoutng Zhuge Liang's.

I don't think Zhuge Liang was wrong to try, nor were Wu with Meng Da. It makes sense for me for Zhuge Liang to try to take advantage of a revolt he knows is coming, split Wei's focus. It didn't work out due to Sima Yi's speedy advance that cuaght Meng Da out but the idea was sound to try to take advantage of Wei distraction.


Nope, i dont consider sending men to aid rebellion thats not actually fought the battle called invasion nor defense. Its just an attempt nothing more.

Wu did send their army and ACTUALLY fought in the defense of a rebellion. Situation are really different.

You keep insisting sending men to an ally land counts as invasion, that means when Sun Liang (-Edit- correction Sun Xiu) send Ding Feng in an attempt to reinforce Shu at 263 counts as invasion as well? whats so different from sending a reinforcement to aid rebels? they're counts as your ally doesnt it?

Actually what written in the Book of Jin were adding salt to ZGL's wound as well. In that book, it explained in a great details on the rebellion, saying that ZGL actually send two general to aid the rebellion and encamped on the Anyang Gorge. But the reinforcement never return as they instead led their men to surrender to Sima Yi. To me this was an attempt to discredit ZGL out of his achievement and pointed out his bad side. Since ZGL couldnt read the two general's intention and send them straight into surrendering, ultimately give blow to Shu's morale.
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Re: Who is stronger, Wu or Shu?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Mon Mar 09, 2020 5:59 pm

How I split it : 1) sending armies into enemy territory (or long standing enemy territory till recent revolt) to take advantage of a revolt in their ranks

2) sending armies into long established allied lands to shore up defence/bail them out in a defensive move.

Most in my expirence would count the former as an aggressive move and an invasion while the latter would be reinforcing an ally.
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Re: Who is stronger, Wu or Shu?

Unread postby Li_Shengsun » Wed Mar 11, 2020 1:44 am

Dong Zhou wrote:How I split it : 1) sending armies into enemy territory (or long standing enemy territory till recent revolt) to take advantage of a revolt in their ranks

2) sending armies into long established allied lands to shore up defence/bail them out in a defensive move.

Most in my expirence would count the former as an aggressive move and an invasion while the latter would be reinforcing an ally.


Okay heres i'll give you a bit short story:
Example, Zhuge Dan revolt. then Sun Chen sent reinforcement to his land
Wu Commander: "Greetings, We, Wu country would like to help you in defending your land and fighting off the Sima clan."
Zhuge Dan: "Thank you, we appreciate your support on us." (opening the castle gate to allow Wu army in)
Wu Commander: "If you managed to win, would you please hand over your land to us?"
Zhuge Dan: "wtf?"
and then Zhuge Dan who disagree in handing over his territory quarreled with the Wu commander. They killed each other to the point the castle almost filled with nothing but corpses of their men. Sima army arrived, capturing all the survivor of the quarrel, and took the castle without a fight. happily ever after.

No one would hand over their territory even you helped them fend off their enemy. Only fools who would hand over their territory to their supporter against their enemy. The best they can do is sending gifts to you and establish trading route with each other as a gratitude for helping them.

Now you see why i keep insisting Wu assisting the rebels counts as defensive battle?
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Re: Who is stronger, Wu or Shu?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Mar 12, 2020 12:04 pm

Let me used that Zhuge Dan example but placing it after a victory as any such discussion (beyond the negotiated terms via envoys) wouldn't take place before then.

Sun Chen: "Hi my agreed upon officer of Wu, we have given you the reinforcements needed and we have won. Yay! Now how shall we push on."

Zhuge Dan "I will break my word to you as a promised vassal, now I have defeated the Sima's, I will drive your army away."

Sun Chen "Ok.... You do realize the consequences? We will execute your son Zhuge Jing and your reputation will be mud having turned against Wei and Wu?"

Zhuge Dan "I'll miss my son but I can win against Sima's and Wu at the same time. Despite needing your help to take on one, I can now take on both"

Sun Chen "...Um ok. Quan Yi, please let my forces into Shouchun so I can quickly destroy Zhuge Dan's forces. Thank you."

Followed by the now noted disloyal Zhuge Dan likely being destroyed as the Wu army within his city led by Quan Yi attacks him, the Wu army of Sun Chen outside gets reinforcements and supplies while even if somehow Zhuge Dan beats both these things back, his starving city soon attack again by the Sima.

Zhuge Dan could try to get it alone against two larger states without any allies but his call for help from Wu indicates he knows he doesn't have much chance of pulling that off.

Rebels (or fools as you call them :wink:) tended to submit to stronger powers for survival. It was rare that they could establish their own full independence (some could negotiate a strong degree of autonomy but were still vassals). The larger power had the resources needed to have any chance of holding off the old bosses and the larger powers tended to have most of the cards when discussing the future, the rebels best hopes would usually be to negotiate a strong position under their new masters.
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Re: Who is stronger, Wu or Shu?

Unread postby Li_Shengsun » Fri Mar 20, 2020 9:26 am

Dong Zhou wrote:Let me used that Zhuge Dan example but placing it after a victory as any such discussion (beyond the negotiated terms via envoys) wouldn't take place before then.

Sun Chen: "Hi my agreed upon officer of Wu, we have given you the reinforcements needed and we have won. Yay! Now how shall we push on."

Zhuge Dan "I will break my word to you as a promised vassal, now I have defeated the Sima's, I will drive your army away."

Sun Chen "Ok.... You do realize the consequences? We will execute your son Zhuge Jing and your reputation will be mud having turned against Wei and Wu?"

Zhuge Dan "I'll miss my son but I can win against Sima's and Wu at the same time. Despite needing your help to take on one, I can now take on both"

Sun Chen "...Um ok. Quan Yi, please let my forces into Shouchun so I can quickly destroy Zhuge Dan's forces. Thank you."

Followed by the now noted disloyal Zhuge Dan likely being destroyed as the Wu army within his city led by Quan Yi attacks him, the Wu army of Sun Chen outside gets reinforcements and supplies while even if somehow Zhuge Dan beats both these things back, his starving city soon attack again by the Sima.

Zhuge Dan could try to get it alone against two larger states without any allies but his call for help from Wu indicates he knows he doesn't have much chance of pulling that off.

Rebels (or fools as you call them :wink:) tended to submit to stronger powers for survival. It was rare that they could establish their own full independence (some could negotiate a strong degree of autonomy but were still vassals). The larger power had the resources needed to have any chance of holding off the old bosses and the larger powers tended to have most of the cards when discussing the future, the rebels best hopes would usually be to negotiate a strong position under their new masters.


Zhuge Dan may be a fool, but he's not stupid. He may agree on the term with Sun Chen, but note that he rebelled not because he was a traitor to Wei, but more into an attempt to solidifying his position as loyalist of Wei and desperate in fighting off the Sima who attempting to take over Wei. Should he win against Sima, more loyalist of Wei would flock into him, thus gaining support from them.

Moreoverly, when you stated a condition where Zhuge Dan - Wu are on victory side, thus aren't without cost. Both side would likely are in no condition to fight each other and exhausted after their battle against Sima. So, Zhuge Dan would unlikely to use force to drive Wu's men off and used trickery to get rid of them.

As i stated before, Zhuge Dan aren't entirely stupid. Quan Duan, Quan Yi & Tang Zi are actually not in best term with Sun Chen, more likely, they're afraid of him after the execution of Zhu Yi. Zhuge Dan just simply entices them into defecting to his side. Wen Qin, while not on good term with Zhuge Dan, he was a loyalist of Wei. If Zhuge Dan won against Sima, the chance of Wen Qin being persuaded to return to Wei are relatively high. When this people are out of the picture, Zhuge Dan would only need to get rid of Yu Quan who are loyal to Wu and the personnel who was sent there at the time. Yu Quan are no tactician, so a simple ploy would likely to kill him, with the commanding officer off the picture, the exhausted soldier of Wu will have no choice, either to surrender or to return to Wu's land. Yes, this would cost Zhuge Dan, his son for his betrayal of Sun Chen's term. But his position are getting stronger with Wei loyalist would flock onto him.

-Edit-
btw, Sun Chen were never on the battlefield. He passes the command of first wave to Zhu Yi and went back to Jianye. Zhu Yi stayed behind during the 1st wave of Wu reinforcement to wait for the 2nd wave led by Ding Feng.
the history also stated that before 1st wave of Wu reinforcement arrive, the Sima forces led by Wang Ji, Chen Qian and Shi Bao are already arrived on the area and began encircling the castle. You see, only half of the 1st Wave managed to enter the castle. While the rest are on the outside attempting to break through the siege. Ding Feng got his azz whooped by Wang Ji and retreated, while Zhu Yi making three attempt in breaking the siege that cost of his life after he retreated.

If you said that Zhuge Dan & Wu are on victory side, its mean Zhuge Dan followed Wen Qin's advice, sending men outside to keep attacking Sima (ala Chen Gong's plan against Cao Cao during Xia Pi), they could won, but as i stated above, a victory comes with cost. The rest you know, as i stated above. By the time Sun Chen know, it would be all too late, and hes got nothing to blame to but Zhuge Dan's son.
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Re: Who is stronger, Wu or Shu?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sat Mar 28, 2020 12:22 pm

Over a week, I'm sorry I had forgotten about this.

I think Wei loyalists (or those less keen on Sima and wishing to exploit the suddenly vulnerable regime) would rise up or try to help Zhuge Dan if he won and then moved against Sima. Not if he is bunkered down becuase he has turned against the only major power capable of providing him help. By getting himself in war with Wu, Zhuge Dan is giving Sima's time to retrench and then come back at him (or immedaitly strike the weakened Dan)

Both sides would be damaged yes. Wu however can summon reinforcements, they have men outside and inside the city. Zhuge Dan has no advantages in this fight. Yes the Wu generals aren't going to be pleased with Sun Chen but they also have families and their wealth in Wu so defecting is a huge ask of them, Zhuge Dan has little to offer them to compensate at this point in time. Wen Qin would likely join Zhuge Dan yes. Your making big assumptions about everyone else defecting or being easy to trick or that Wei loyalists would get up, leave their posts (let alone bring the kind of things Zhuge Dan needs), I think they will wait to see Zhuge Dan strike and then react to that. If Zhuge Dan doesn't move against Sima quickly, his chance may go.

You can replace Sun Chen with a messenger, a senior offical or waiting till Sun Chen arrives, I just used Sun Chen's name as a Wu representative. It doesn't particularly matter who is handling the talks for Wu (unless they really mess it up), they have all the cards. I'm not making any assumption as to how Zhuge Dan and Wu beat the Sima, just for the sake of argument they did. For Zhuge Dan to win against Wu he has to rely on pretty much everything going his way near and far if he is foolish enough to turn against his ally
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