Who is stronger, Wu or Shu?

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Re: Who is stronger, Wu or Shu?

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:06 pm

Li_Shengsun wrote:hard to say which is stronger.
in terms of aggressiveness, Shu is on top. but in term of defense and passiveness, Wu is the best.

btw Wu lost not bc they waited too long, i pretty doubt they have any ambition to conquer China. They just sit and mind their own business and only attacking when they seen an opening. Wu lost because of the internal disputes that spanned for like 20-30 years, many talents is lost during that time. By the time Jin making an offensive against Wu, Wu no longer have any strength to fight.

Shu was lost bc that stupid Jiang Wei changed the interlocking camp defensive strategy concocted by Wei Yan and Wang Ping. And also that slippery eel Huang Hao who kept spreading his poisonous venom on the Court. not to mention that 11th campaign launched by that stupid disciple which drained the already drained resources.

perhaps i might say theyre equal in strength?

-Edit-
Zhuge Liang also mention about Liu Bei need Wu to restore Han, Wu also needed Liu to survive. ZGL's longzhong plan was centralized on Jingzhou. Had Pang Tong werent died on Yizhou, ZGL wouldnt had to move and Jingzhou would never fall to Wu so prematurely.


Wu absolutely wanted unification. They claimed to be taking up the Mandate from the Han. The idea that they were isolationists is misinformed. Much of Wu's ruling families were even from the North as well, generally from Xuzhou.

Jiang Wei wasn't stupid and his defensive plan has been studied by actual people at universities that are militarily minded and they've said his plan absolutely had merit to it. John J. Killigrew has an excellent paper on this subject and I wish all these people critical of Jiang Wei's defense would take the time to actually read it. It's called A case study of Chinese civil warfare: The Cao‐Wei conquest of Shu‐Han in AD 263. People fail to grasp that Shu cannot and will not survive simply sticking to Yizhou. It is an impossibility. Wei Yan's plan, while protecting Shu, offered zero chances to counterattack. And yes, his plan worked once. Jiang Wei's failed once. Who is to say Wei Yan's plan would keep succeeding? Zhong Hui and Deng Ai were extremely tactfully minded people, far more than Cao Shuang. Deng Ai was far more experienced than Wei Yan as well and he held a much more impressive career. Do you honestly believe Wei Yan's outdated strategy would hold up?

The fault of Jiang Wei's plan was in two folds.

[list=]He was camped 100 some miles west to counteract any attack from there as opposed to being closer to help Hanzhong. However he was right in camping there as both Zhuge Xu and Deng Ai attacked with 60,000. But at the same time Zhong Hui's 100,000 force was so strong and it descended upon Hanzhong too quickly for Jiang Wei to properly react. The distance between his western camp and Hanzhong was made greater by the winding terrain.

The second fault came with the withdrawal to Jiange Pass following Hu Lie's capture of Yangping Pass. He withdrew the garrison at Yinping and did not forsee the disaster that would befall as a result. By the time Deng Ai defeated the failed general Zhuge Zhan what was Jiang Wei supposed to do? If he marches south, Zhong Hui consumes all the north and still loses. If he remains, we get the same story that was told. [/list]

Wu's defeat came at the hands of disloyal gentry clans who refused to submit to the Emperor, disloyally refused to follow orders, assaulted his subordinates and monopolized power, while simultaneously abandoning their western deference. Lu Meng had predicted before the Three States formed that an attack from upstream would defeat them. Lu Kang as well said the same thing and this is what happened. Wang Hun and Sima Zhou decimated the land forces in the east and kept them busy while Wang Jun's ravine force was able to sail down the Yangtze and surround the capital.
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Re: Who is stronger, Wu or Shu?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:49 pm

DaoLunOfShiji wrote:hard to say which is stronger.
in terms of aggressiveness, Shu is on top. but in term of defense and passiveness, Wu is the best.


btw Wu lost not bc they waited too long, i pretty doubt they have any ambition to conquer China. They just sit and mind their own business and only attacking when they seen an opening. Wu lost because of the internal disputes that spanned for like 20-30 years, many talents is lost during that time. By the time Jin making an offensive against Wu, Wu no longer have any strength to fight.

-Edit-
Zhuge Liang also mention about Liu Bei need Wu to restore Han, Wu also needed Liu to survive. ZGL's longzhong plan was centralized on Jingzhou. Had Pang Tong werent died on Yizhou, ZGL wouldnt had to move and Jingzhou would never fall to Wu so prematurely.


I get where this comes from, the cultural image of Wu and that the focus tends to be Shu's Northern Campaigns but Sun Quan alone invaded Hefei (let alone other fronts) 14 times I believe. Historically Wu vs Wei was the big and regular source of fighting, Wu had ambitions but they couldn't breach the Wei defences (and vice versa)

Zhuge Liang would likely have gone to Yi at some point before the conquest was done, he was Liu Bei' chief civil officer and would need to be there to get a quick grip on the administration of Yi
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Re: Who is stronger, Wu or Shu?

Unread postby Li_Shengsun » Sat Feb 15, 2020 6:33 pm

DaoLunOfShiji wrote:Wu absolutely wanted unification. They claimed to be taking up the Mandate from the Han. The idea that they were isolationists is misinformed. Much of Wu's ruling families were even from the North as well, generally from Xuzhou.


invading Wei for 14 times and kept on losing(note that the area that kept attacked was Hefei), not even changed their way of how to win, and then plunged into internal conflict for years wasnt a way to 'wanted unification' really. But i get it, Wu's ground military was a lot weaker than Wei in general. Wu might need more than one Zhou Yu in order to win and not just Lu Xun.

Jiang Wei wasn't stupid and his defensive plan has been studied by actual people at universities that are militarily minded and they've said his plan absolutely had merit to it. John J. Killigrew has an excellent paper on this subject and I wish all these people critical of Jiang Wei's defense would take the time to actually read it. It's called A case study of Chinese civil warfare: The Cao‐Wei conquest of Shu‐Han in AD 263. People fail to grasp that Shu cannot and will not survive simply sticking to Yizhou. It is an impossibility. Wei Yan's plan, while protecting Shu, offered zero chances to counterattack. And yes, his plan worked once. Jiang Wei's failed once. Who is to say Wei Yan's plan would keep succeeding? Zhong Hui and Deng Ai were extremely tactfully minded people, far more than Cao Shuang. Deng Ai was far more experienced than Wei Yan as well and he held a much more impressive career. Do you honestly believe Wei Yan's outdated strategy would hold up?


Well... i cant really debate you on this, that is certainly a valid point. It was different times, even if its worked, it'll probably just stalled them, not actually preventing Shu from its impeding fall. Its also true that one cant just simply stick on one place in order to survive.

-Edit- Perhaps that one of the reason why Jiang Wei kept attacking Wei? to expand Shu's land. He cant invade east since its Shu's ally so he invade north to Wei.

The fault of Jiang Wei's plan was in two folds.

[list=]He was camped 100 some miles west to counteract any attack from there as opposed to being closer to help Hanzhong. However he was right in camping there as both Zhuge Xu and Deng Ai attacked with 60,000. But at the same time Zhong Hui's 100,000 force was so strong and it descended upon Hanzhong too quickly for Jiang Wei to properly react. The distance between his western camp and Hanzhong was made greater by the winding terrain.

The second fault came with the withdrawal to Jiange Pass following Hu Lie's capture of Yangping Pass. He withdrew the garrison at Yinping and did not forsee the disaster that would befall as a result. By the time Deng Ai defeated the failed general Zhuge Zhan what was Jiang Wei supposed to do? If he marches south, Zhong Hui consumes all the north and still loses. If he remains, we get the same story that was told. [/list]


Youre right, the withdrawal of Yinping Garrison turned out to be the important point on the fall of Shu.

Wu's defeat came at the hands of disloyal gentry clans who refused to submit to the Emperor, disloyally refused to follow orders, assaulted his subordinates and monopolized power, while simultaneously abandoning their western deference. Lu Meng had predicted before the Three States formed that an attack from upstream would defeat them. Lu Kang as well said the same thing and this is what happened. Wang Hun and Sima Zhou decimated the land forces in the east and kept them busy while Wang Jun's ravine force was able to sail down the Yangtze and surround the capital.


warned and did nothing to prevent it is the same as a vain empty word. Lu Meng and Lu Kang did said it, but they hardly do anything on it. Wu's land forces was never as strong as Jin, its kind of a surprise that they still unable to breach the line and march to the capital before Wang Jun did.

Dong Zhou wrote:I get where this comes from, the cultural image of Wu and that the focus tends to be Shu's Northern Campaigns but Sun Quan alone invaded Hefei (let alone other fronts) 14 times I believe. Historically Wu vs Wei was the big and regular source of fighting, Wu had ambitions but they couldn't breach the Wei defences (and vice versa)

Zhuge Liang would likely have gone to Yi at some point before the conquest was done, he was Liu Bei' chief civil officer and would need to be there to get a quick grip on the administration of Yi


14 times, most of them are Hefei. im surprise they hasnt given up to capture that area despite the losing count, id say Wu is pretty tenacious and hardheaded to take that place. kind of wonder how important it is really.

having ambition but never plan up a way to get them are hardly an ambition. Its not that they couldnt breach the defenses, Wu's land forces were never as strong as Wei, and they never even try to improve that weakness just because they think they had a river to protect them.

ZGL would gone to Yizhou eventually, but he could put someone else to replace him to become Guan Yu's voice of reason, advising him on whats wrong and whats right action to take. Of course they would hand over Jingzhou to Sun Quan as part of agreement or courtesy, but by then Shu would be strong enough to fight both fronts.
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Re: Who is stronger, Wu or Shu?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sun Feb 16, 2020 4:40 pm

Ok seems to be confusion, when I said Hefei only I meant that speaking of Hefei alone and only during the Sun Quan era, there were 14 attacks which is hardly passive. There were umpteen invasions elsewhere on Wei positions by Wu, Sun Quan had more then 14 invasions on Wei and at times it was almost an annual event

Wu tried a lot of things, luring Wei forces in, multi-pronged invasions, different routes, alliance with Gongsun Yuan,joint invasions, bringing in cavalry elsewhere, so on and so forth. It wasn't that Wu didn't try to improve their odds or build up their resources and army but they lacked cavalry, had a no man's land situation, Wei was able to reinforce their positions quickly, the river and climate issue.

ZGL would gone to Yizhou eventually, but he could put someone else to replace him to become Guan Yu's voice of reason, advising him on whats wrong and whats right action to take. Of course they would hand over Jingzhou to Sun Quan as part of agreement or courtesy, but by then Shu would be strong enough to fight both fronts.


Yes in a possibly more controlled situation, Guan Yu gets a bigger name adviser. No way was Shu under any adviser going to hand over Jing though
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Re: Who is stronger, Wu or Shu?

Unread postby Li_Shengsun » Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:13 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:Ok seems to be confusion, when I said Hefei only I meant that speaking of Hefei alone and only during the Sun Quan era, there were 14 attacks which is hardly passive. There were umpteen invasions elsewhere on Wei positions by Wu, Sun Quan had more then 14 invasions on Wei and at times it was almost an annual event

Wu tried a lot of things, luring Wei forces in, multi-pronged invasions, different routes, alliance with Gongsun Yuan,joint invasions, bringing in cavalry elsewhere, so on and so forth. It wasn't that Wu didn't try to improve their odds or build up their resources and army but they lacked cavalry, had a no man's land situation, Wei was able to reinforce their positions quickly, the river and climate issue.


ok lets suppose its more than 14 times, what do they learnt from that many invasion? how far they try to improve their situation each invasion?

you say Wu tried alot of things, did they try to improve their navy maneuver? try new things with their naval forces? suppose they get bested by enemy cavalry, what step they take in order improve their situation? none.
Wu has cavalry, but their horses are no match against Wuhuan's horses. Wu's infantry and cavalry are mostly light armoured, while Wei are heavily armoured. the difference are so great.
Shu invented Flamethrower, Wei/Jin invented Fuses Cannon. What did Wu invent? a thickened Walls? theyre useless when you had so many defectors and traitors from inside.

the alliance between Wu and Gongsun Yuan are a failure. do you think their primitive navy could reach LiaoDong within a week?
You see here, Wei was wanted to invade JiangDong ever since Cao Cao sets his eyes on Chibi. Even after his defeat, he gradually recruiting and training them for that purpose. Thus why Wei are so quickly reinforced a city when theyre attacked, is because theyre ready and standby on every situation.

-Edit-
The only thing that prevented them from making a full scale invasion on Wu is because Wei was being cautious and waiting their chances so their largest defeat on Chibi were never happening again, and they also try to improving their odds by hiring Wu defectors into their rank, so their army could be trained on naval battle.

-Edit2-
Wu was given chance to improve their odds when Wei's veteran like Wen Qin defected to them. But Sun Hao never really uses him, and sent him straight away to his doom when Zhuge Dan revolted on the next years. Had Zhuge Dan never revolted, im pretty doubt Wen Qin would be able to keep his 'head' intact with all the tyranny Sun Hao did.
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Re: Who is stronger, Wu or Shu?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Feb 20, 2020 7:39 pm

ok lets suppose its more than 14 times, what do they learnt from that many invasion? how far they try to improve their situation each invasion?


What records of their inner most councils for each and every session, hard to say. We do constant changing routes, the many different tactics for invasions, attempts to build up their strength and so on.

you say Wu tried alot of things, did they try to improve their navy maneuver? try new things with their naval forces? suppose they get bested by enemy cavalry, what step they take in order improve their situation? none.
Wu has cavalry, but their horses are no match against Wuhuan's horses. Wu's infantry and cavalry are mostly light armoured, while Wei are heavily armoured. the difference are so great.
Shu invented Flamethrower, Wei/Jin invented Fuses Cannon. What did Wu invent? a thickened Walls? theyre useless when you had so many defectors and traitors from inside.


I believe they tried new ships. That sort of detail of naval tactics isn't really deal with by Chen Shou and given Wu won their naval battles, not sure what more they could do. Being good at sea is not so helpful when trying to take a city in land or deals with the fundamental problems Wu faced in expanding.

Where in the records did it say nothing was tried to improve situation?

Yes that is why Wu tried to trade for northern horses when they could. Where is that Wu didn't have heavy armour?

Shu invented what? Wei had cannon's? Where is this from? Military inventors were fairly rare, I can think of one guy in each kingdom who advanced miliatry technology (Zhuge Liang, Ma Jun, Zhang Cheng I think), the era more saw medicinal and philosophy revolutions then military

the alliance between Wu and Gongsun Yuan are a failure. do you think their primitive navy could reach LiaoDong within a week?
You see here, Wei was wanted to invade JiangDong ever since Cao Cao sets his eyes on Chibi. Even after his defeat, he gradually recruiting and training them for that purpose. Thus why Wei are so quickly reinforced a city when theyre attacked, is because theyre ready and standby on every situation.


Of course not. It also didn't work out for them but it provided a bit of pressure on Wei and was an attempt to find another option. You accuse them of lacking ambition and of being passive then when it is pointed out Wu actually did a lot more then you thought, you seem to be trying to re-frame the meaning of the word ambition? :?

Wei tended to be able to move quickly to reinforce as they built their key defence points to hold out while the flat plains allowed them to get troops across quickly. It makes it very hard for Wu to then take those places

-Edit-
The only thing that prevented them from making a full scale invasion on Wu is because Wei was being cautious and waiting their chances so their largest defeat on Chibi were never happening again, and they also try to improving their odds by hiring Wu defectors into their rank, so their army could be trained on naval battle.


Just as novel and culture removed major Wu attacks on Wei to turn Shu into the main threat, the same happened the other way. Wei attacked Wu a lot, like Wu at varied points, some lesser invasions yes but also full blown mass invasions. It was the major front

-Edit2-
Wu was given chance to improve their odds when Wei's veteran like Wen Qin defected to them. But Sun Hao never really uses him, and sent him straight away to his doom when Zhuge Dan revolted on the next years. Had Zhuge Dan never revolted, im pretty doubt Wen Qin would be able to keep his 'head' intact with all the tyranny Sun Hao did.


Didn't Wen Qin die several years before Sun Hao become Emperor? I agree that the split between the Sima's and some of the southern commanders in Wei was a big chance for Wu. Unfortunately (for Wu) by then, Wu had major and crippling internal problems that left it's ability to impose strong miliatry force hampered
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