Who is stronger, Wu or Shu?

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Re: Who is stronger, Wu or Shu?

Unread postby DaoLunOfShiji » Fri Feb 14, 2020 2:06 pm

Li_Shengsun wrote:hard to say which is stronger.
in terms of aggressiveness, Shu is on top. but in term of defense and passiveness, Wu is the best.

btw Wu lost not bc they waited too long, i pretty doubt they have any ambition to conquer China. They just sit and mind their own business and only attacking when they seen an opening. Wu lost because of the internal disputes that spanned for like 20-30 years, many talents is lost during that time. By the time Jin making an offensive against Wu, Wu no longer have any strength to fight.

Shu was lost bc that stupid Jiang Wei changed the interlocking camp defensive strategy concocted by Wei Yan and Wang Ping. And also that slippery eel Huang Hao who kept spreading his poisonous venom on the Court. not to mention that 11th campaign launched by that stupid disciple which drained the already drained resources.

perhaps i might say theyre equal in strength?

-Edit-
Zhuge Liang also mention about Liu Bei need Wu to restore Han, Wu also needed Liu to survive. ZGL's longzhong plan was centralized on Jingzhou. Had Pang Tong werent died on Yizhou, ZGL wouldnt had to move and Jingzhou would never fall to Wu so prematurely.


Wu absolutely wanted unification. They claimed to be taking up the Mandate from the Han. The idea that they were isolationists is misinformed. Much of Wu's ruling families were even from the North as well, generally from Xuzhou.

Jiang Wei wasn't stupid and his defensive plan has been studied by actual people at universities that are militarily minded and they've said his plan absolutely had merit to it. John J. Killigrew has an excellent paper on this subject and I wish all these people critical of Jiang Wei's defense would take the time to actually read it. It's called A case study of Chinese civil warfare: The Cao‐Wei conquest of Shu‐Han in AD 263. People fail to grasp that Shu cannot and will not survive simply sticking to Yizhou. It is an impossibility. Wei Yan's plan, while protecting Shu, offered zero chances to counterattack. And yes, his plan worked once. Jiang Wei's failed once. Who is to say Wei Yan's plan would keep succeeding? Zhong Hui and Deng Ai were extremely tactfully minded people, far more than Cao Shuang. Deng Ai was far more experienced than Wei Yan as well and he held a much more impressive career. Do you honestly believe Wei Yan's outdated strategy would hold up?

The fault of Jiang Wei's plan was in two folds.

[list=]He was camped 100 some miles west to counteract any attack from there as opposed to being closer to help Hanzhong. However he was right in camping there as both Zhuge Xu and Deng Ai attacked with 60,000. But at the same time Zhong Hui's 100,000 force was so strong and it descended upon Hanzhong too quickly for Jiang Wei to properly react. The distance between his western camp and Hanzhong was made greater by the winding terrain.

The second fault came with the withdrawal to Jiange Pass following Hu Lie's capture of Yangping Pass. He withdrew the garrison at Yinping and did not forsee the disaster that would befall as a result. By the time Deng Ai defeated the failed general Zhuge Zhan what was Jiang Wei supposed to do? If he marches south, Zhong Hui consumes all the north and still loses. If he remains, we get the same story that was told. [/list]

Wu's defeat came at the hands of disloyal gentry clans who refused to submit to the Emperor, disloyally refused to follow orders, assaulted his subordinates and monopolized power, while simultaneously abandoning their western deference. Lu Meng had predicted before the Three States formed that an attack from upstream would defeat them. Lu Kang as well said the same thing and this is what happened. Wang Hun and Sima Zhou decimated the land forces in the east and kept them busy while Wang Jun's ravine force was able to sail down the Yangtze and surround the capital.
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Re: Who is stronger, Wu or Shu?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Feb 14, 2020 7:49 pm

DaoLunOfShiji wrote:hard to say which is stronger.
in terms of aggressiveness, Shu is on top. but in term of defense and passiveness, Wu is the best.


btw Wu lost not bc they waited too long, i pretty doubt they have any ambition to conquer China. They just sit and mind their own business and only attacking when they seen an opening. Wu lost because of the internal disputes that spanned for like 20-30 years, many talents is lost during that time. By the time Jin making an offensive against Wu, Wu no longer have any strength to fight.

-Edit-
Zhuge Liang also mention about Liu Bei need Wu to restore Han, Wu also needed Liu to survive. ZGL's longzhong plan was centralized on Jingzhou. Had Pang Tong werent died on Yizhou, ZGL wouldnt had to move and Jingzhou would never fall to Wu so prematurely.


I get where this comes from, the cultural image of Wu and that the focus tends to be Shu's Northern Campaigns but Sun Quan alone invaded Hefei (let alone other fronts) 14 times I believe. Historically Wu vs Wei was the big and regular source of fighting, Wu had ambitions but they couldn't breach the Wei defences (and vice versa)

Zhuge Liang would likely have gone to Yi at some point before the conquest was done, he was Liu Bei' chief civil officer and would need to be there to get a quick grip on the administration of Yi
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Re: Who is stronger, Wu or Shu?

Unread postby Li_Shengsun » Sat Feb 15, 2020 6:33 pm

DaoLunOfShiji wrote:Wu absolutely wanted unification. They claimed to be taking up the Mandate from the Han. The idea that they were isolationists is misinformed. Much of Wu's ruling families were even from the North as well, generally from Xuzhou.


invading Wei for 14 times and kept on losing(note that the area that kept attacked was Hefei), not even changed their way of how to win, and then plunged into internal conflict for years wasnt a way to 'wanted unification' really. But i get it, Wu's ground military was a lot weaker than Wei in general. Wu might need more than one Zhou Yu in order to win and not just Lu Xun.

Jiang Wei wasn't stupid and his defensive plan has been studied by actual people at universities that are militarily minded and they've said his plan absolutely had merit to it. John J. Killigrew has an excellent paper on this subject and I wish all these people critical of Jiang Wei's defense would take the time to actually read it. It's called A case study of Chinese civil warfare: The Cao‐Wei conquest of Shu‐Han in AD 263. People fail to grasp that Shu cannot and will not survive simply sticking to Yizhou. It is an impossibility. Wei Yan's plan, while protecting Shu, offered zero chances to counterattack. And yes, his plan worked once. Jiang Wei's failed once. Who is to say Wei Yan's plan would keep succeeding? Zhong Hui and Deng Ai were extremely tactfully minded people, far more than Cao Shuang. Deng Ai was far more experienced than Wei Yan as well and he held a much more impressive career. Do you honestly believe Wei Yan's outdated strategy would hold up?


Well... i cant really debate you on this, that is certainly a valid point. It was different times, even if its worked, it'll probably just stalled them, not actually preventing Shu from its impeding fall. Its also true that one cant just simply stick on one place in order to survive.

-Edit- Perhaps that one of the reason why Jiang Wei kept attacking Wei? to expand Shu's land. He cant invade east since its Shu's ally so he invade north to Wei.

The fault of Jiang Wei's plan was in two folds.

[list=]He was camped 100 some miles west to counteract any attack from there as opposed to being closer to help Hanzhong. However he was right in camping there as both Zhuge Xu and Deng Ai attacked with 60,000. But at the same time Zhong Hui's 100,000 force was so strong and it descended upon Hanzhong too quickly for Jiang Wei to properly react. The distance between his western camp and Hanzhong was made greater by the winding terrain.

The second fault came with the withdrawal to Jiange Pass following Hu Lie's capture of Yangping Pass. He withdrew the garrison at Yinping and did not forsee the disaster that would befall as a result. By the time Deng Ai defeated the failed general Zhuge Zhan what was Jiang Wei supposed to do? If he marches south, Zhong Hui consumes all the north and still loses. If he remains, we get the same story that was told. [/list]


Youre right, the withdrawal of Yinping Garrison turned out to be the important point on the fall of Shu.

Wu's defeat came at the hands of disloyal gentry clans who refused to submit to the Emperor, disloyally refused to follow orders, assaulted his subordinates and monopolized power, while simultaneously abandoning their western deference. Lu Meng had predicted before the Three States formed that an attack from upstream would defeat them. Lu Kang as well said the same thing and this is what happened. Wang Hun and Sima Zhou decimated the land forces in the east and kept them busy while Wang Jun's ravine force was able to sail down the Yangtze and surround the capital.


warned and did nothing to prevent it is the same as a vain empty word. Lu Meng and Lu Kang did said it, but they hardly do anything on it. Wu's land forces was never as strong as Jin, its kind of a surprise that they still unable to breach the line and march to the capital before Wang Jun did.

Dong Zhou wrote:I get where this comes from, the cultural image of Wu and that the focus tends to be Shu's Northern Campaigns but Sun Quan alone invaded Hefei (let alone other fronts) 14 times I believe. Historically Wu vs Wei was the big and regular source of fighting, Wu had ambitions but they couldn't breach the Wei defences (and vice versa)

Zhuge Liang would likely have gone to Yi at some point before the conquest was done, he was Liu Bei' chief civil officer and would need to be there to get a quick grip on the administration of Yi


14 times, most of them are Hefei. im surprise they hasnt given up to capture that area despite the losing count, id say Wu is pretty tenacious and hardheaded to take that place. kind of wonder how important it is really.

having ambition but never plan up a way to get them are hardly an ambition. Its not that they couldnt breach the defenses, Wu's land forces were never as strong as Wei, and they never even try to improve that weakness just because they think they had a river to protect them.

ZGL would gone to Yizhou eventually, but he could put someone else to replace him to become Guan Yu's voice of reason, advising him on whats wrong and whats right action to take. Of course they would hand over Jingzhou to Sun Quan as part of agreement or courtesy, but by then Shu would be strong enough to fight both fronts.
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Re: Who is stronger, Wu or Shu?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Sun Feb 16, 2020 4:40 pm

Ok seems to be confusion, when I said Hefei only I meant that speaking of Hefei alone and only during the Sun Quan era, there were 14 attacks which is hardly passive. There were umpteen invasions elsewhere on Wei positions by Wu, Sun Quan had more then 14 invasions on Wei and at times it was almost an annual event

Wu tried a lot of things, luring Wei forces in, multi-pronged invasions, different routes, alliance with Gongsun Yuan,joint invasions, bringing in cavalry elsewhere, so on and so forth. It wasn't that Wu didn't try to improve their odds or build up their resources and army but they lacked cavalry, had a no man's land situation, Wei was able to reinforce their positions quickly, the river and climate issue.

ZGL would gone to Yizhou eventually, but he could put someone else to replace him to become Guan Yu's voice of reason, advising him on whats wrong and whats right action to take. Of course they would hand over Jingzhou to Sun Quan as part of agreement or courtesy, but by then Shu would be strong enough to fight both fronts.


Yes in a possibly more controlled situation, Guan Yu gets a bigger name adviser. No way was Shu under any adviser going to hand over Jing though
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Re: Who is stronger, Wu or Shu?

Unread postby Li_Shengsun » Mon Feb 17, 2020 1:13 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:Ok seems to be confusion, when I said Hefei only I meant that speaking of Hefei alone and only during the Sun Quan era, there were 14 attacks which is hardly passive. There were umpteen invasions elsewhere on Wei positions by Wu, Sun Quan had more then 14 invasions on Wei and at times it was almost an annual event

Wu tried a lot of things, luring Wei forces in, multi-pronged invasions, different routes, alliance with Gongsun Yuan,joint invasions, bringing in cavalry elsewhere, so on and so forth. It wasn't that Wu didn't try to improve their odds or build up their resources and army but they lacked cavalry, had a no man's land situation, Wei was able to reinforce their positions quickly, the river and climate issue.


ok lets suppose its more than 14 times, what do they learnt from that many invasion? how far they try to improve their situation each invasion?

you say Wu tried alot of things, did they try to improve their navy maneuver? try new things with their naval forces? suppose they get bested by enemy cavalry, what step they take in order improve their situation? none.
Wu has cavalry, but their horses are no match against Wuhuan's horses. Wu's infantry and cavalry are mostly light armoured, while Wei are heavily armoured. the difference are so great.
Shu invented Flamethrower, Wei/Jin invented Fuses Cannon. What did Wu invent? a thickened Walls? theyre useless when you had so many defectors and traitors from inside.

the alliance between Wu and Gongsun Yuan are a failure. do you think their primitive navy could reach LiaoDong within a week?
You see here, Wei was wanted to invade JiangDong ever since Cao Cao sets his eyes on Chibi. Even after his defeat, he gradually recruiting and training them for that purpose. Thus why Wei are so quickly reinforced a city when theyre attacked, is because theyre ready and standby on every situation.

-Edit-
The only thing that prevented them from making a full scale invasion on Wu is because Wei was being cautious and waiting their chances so their largest defeat on Chibi were never happening again, and they also try to improving their odds by hiring Wu defectors into their rank, so their army could be trained on naval battle.

-Edit2-
Wu was given chance to improve their odds when Wei's veteran like Wen Qin defected to them. But Sun Hao never really uses him, and sent him straight away to his doom when Zhuge Dan revolted on the next years. Had Zhuge Dan never revolted, im pretty doubt Wen Qin would be able to keep his 'head' intact with all the tyranny Sun Hao did.
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Re: Who is stronger, Wu or Shu?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Feb 20, 2020 7:39 pm

ok lets suppose its more than 14 times, what do they learnt from that many invasion? how far they try to improve their situation each invasion?


What records of their inner most councils for each and every session, hard to say. We do constant changing routes, the many different tactics for invasions, attempts to build up their strength and so on.

you say Wu tried alot of things, did they try to improve their navy maneuver? try new things with their naval forces? suppose they get bested by enemy cavalry, what step they take in order improve their situation? none.
Wu has cavalry, but their horses are no match against Wuhuan's horses. Wu's infantry and cavalry are mostly light armoured, while Wei are heavily armoured. the difference are so great.
Shu invented Flamethrower, Wei/Jin invented Fuses Cannon. What did Wu invent? a thickened Walls? theyre useless when you had so many defectors and traitors from inside.


I believe they tried new ships. That sort of detail of naval tactics isn't really deal with by Chen Shou and given Wu won their naval battles, not sure what more they could do. Being good at sea is not so helpful when trying to take a city in land or deals with the fundamental problems Wu faced in expanding.

Where in the records did it say nothing was tried to improve situation?

Yes that is why Wu tried to trade for northern horses when they could. Where is that Wu didn't have heavy armour?

Shu invented what? Wei had cannon's? Where is this from? Military inventors were fairly rare, I can think of one guy in each kingdom who advanced miliatry technology (Zhuge Liang, Ma Jun, Zhang Cheng I think), the era more saw medicinal and philosophy revolutions then military

the alliance between Wu and Gongsun Yuan are a failure. do you think their primitive navy could reach LiaoDong within a week?
You see here, Wei was wanted to invade JiangDong ever since Cao Cao sets his eyes on Chibi. Even after his defeat, he gradually recruiting and training them for that purpose. Thus why Wei are so quickly reinforced a city when theyre attacked, is because theyre ready and standby on every situation.


Of course not. It also didn't work out for them but it provided a bit of pressure on Wei and was an attempt to find another option. You accuse them of lacking ambition and of being passive then when it is pointed out Wu actually did a lot more then you thought, you seem to be trying to re-frame the meaning of the word ambition? :?

Wei tended to be able to move quickly to reinforce as they built their key defence points to hold out while the flat plains allowed them to get troops across quickly. It makes it very hard for Wu to then take those places

-Edit-
The only thing that prevented them from making a full scale invasion on Wu is because Wei was being cautious and waiting their chances so their largest defeat on Chibi were never happening again, and they also try to improving their odds by hiring Wu defectors into their rank, so their army could be trained on naval battle.


Just as novel and culture removed major Wu attacks on Wei to turn Shu into the main threat, the same happened the other way. Wei attacked Wu a lot, like Wu at varied points, some lesser invasions yes but also full blown mass invasions. It was the major front

-Edit2-
Wu was given chance to improve their odds when Wei's veteran like Wen Qin defected to them. But Sun Hao never really uses him, and sent him straight away to his doom when Zhuge Dan revolted on the next years. Had Zhuge Dan never revolted, im pretty doubt Wen Qin would be able to keep his 'head' intact with all the tyranny Sun Hao did.


Didn't Wen Qin die several years before Sun Hao become Emperor? I agree that the split between the Sima's and some of the southern commanders in Wei was a big chance for Wu. Unfortunately (for Wu) by then, Wu had major and crippling internal problems that left it's ability to impose strong miliatry force hampered
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Re: Who is stronger, Wu or Shu?

Unread postby Li_Shengsun » Fri Feb 21, 2020 8:37 am

Dong Zhou wrote:What records of their inner most councils for each and every session, hard to say. We do constant changing routes, the many different tactics for invasions, attempts to build up their strength and so on.


seems vague, but i get it.

I believe they tried new ships. That sort of detail of naval tactics isn't really deal with by Chen Shou and given Wu won their naval battles, not sure what more they could do. Being good at sea is not so helpful when trying to take a city in land or deals with the fundamental problems Wu faced in expanding.

Where in the records did it say nothing was tried to improve situation?


okay, Wu never had any naval battle after Chibi, mostly the battle happens on lands.

Yes that is why Wu tried to trade for northern horses when they could. Where is that Wu didn't have heavy armour?


really? and to whom they attempting to make such trade?

i only said Wu's army are 'mostly' light armoured, i didnt say Wu dont have heavy armour. Wu armies are mostly archers, archers are usually wear light armour. Navymen are also light armour, ship that too heavy would advance slower and it will hinder the campaign and cost lots of supplies than normal.

Shu invented what? Wei had cannon's? Where is this from? Military inventors were fairly rare, I can think of one guy in each kingdom who advanced miliatry technology (Zhuge Liang, Ma Jun, Zhang Cheng I think), the era more saw medicinal and philosophy revolutions then military.


Maybe not like a real flame thrower, more like a device that spit flame to scare the animals away when Meng Huo intend to use wilds animal to attack Shu forces. Sorry if i said it Flamethrower.
perhaps calling it fuses boulder would be more accurate? things that put on trebuchet and exploded on impact. Seen alot of it on Wei era especially on Guandu.

Of course not. It also didn't work out for them but it provided a bit of pressure on Wei and was an attempt to find another option. You accuse them of lacking ambition and of being passive then when it is pointed out Wu actually did a lot more then you thought, you seem to be trying to re-frame the meaning of the word ambition? :?

Wei tended to be able to move quickly to reinforce as they built their key defence points to hold out while the flat plains allowed them to get troops across quickly. It makes it very hard for Wu to then take those places


Nope, i read the battle between Wei and Wu. Wu mostly fought a defensive battle against Wei. Perhaps rarely fought an offensive battle are my interpretation on lack of ambition. Well they did do damage to Wei on Cao Pi-Cao Rui era. But Wu get more casualty on Cao Fang's era, even though that era Wei defender on their border are pretty weakened, no Zhang Liao and others.

Just as novel and culture removed major Wu attacks on Wei to turn Shu into the main threat, the same happened the other way. Wei attacked Wu a lot, like Wu at varied points, some lesser invasions yes but also full blown mass invasions. It was the major front


Just as the real history recorded. Wu never had any dangerous threat across their border, if you consider generals like Zhuge Dan, Wang Ling and Guanqiu Jian a threat, i beg you to reconsider, since they're not that resourceful as Deng Ai, Chen Tai and other that Jiang Wei had to face. Meaning, even Wei themselves never seen Wu as threat despite their battle against them. Only Yang Hu who poses as threat to Wu's border, but Yang Hu himself are rarely attack Wu border.


Didn't Wen Qin die several years before Sun Hao become Emperor? I agree that the split between the Sima's and some of the southern commanders in Wei was a big chance for Wu. Unfortunately (for Wu) by then, Wu had major and crippling internal problems that left it's ability to impose strong miliatry force hampered


My bad, it was Sun Jun. Wu had many tyrants, i sometimes mixed them one after another, sorry.
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Re: Who is stronger, Wu or Shu?

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Mon Feb 24, 2020 12:42 pm

really? and to whom they attempting to make such trade?

i only said Wu's army are 'mostly' light armoured, i didnt say Wu dont have heavy armour. Wu armies are mostly archers, archers are usually wear light armour. Navymen are also light armour, ship that too heavy would advance slower and it will hinder the campaign and cost lots of supplies than normal.


Gongsun clan and they tended to use alliances with those with horses to try to get such trades.

Where is that from that Wu were mostly archers and didn't use normal heavy armour in the umpteen miliatry camapigns they fought on land?

Maybe not like a real flame thrower, more like a device that spit flame to scare the animals away when Meng Huo intend to use wilds animal to attack Shu forces. Sorry if i said it Flamethrower.
perhaps calling it fuses boulder would be more accurate? things that put on trebuchet and exploded on impact. Seen alot of it on Wei era especially on Guandu.


That is a fictional thing from the novel

I think your thinking of thundercarts (which I think is only mentioned at Guandu). While it isn't 100% clear what that meant, I think De Crespigny's mobile ballitsta theory is more likely

Nope, i read the battle between Wei and Wu. Wu mostly fought a defensive battle against Wei. Perhaps rarely fought an offensive battle are my interpretation on lack of ambition. Well they did do damage to Wei on Cao Pi-Cao Rui era. But Wu get more casualty on Cao Fang's era, even though that era Wei defender on their border are pretty weakened, no Zhang Liao and others.


Rarely fought an offensive battle? One Wu ruler (Sun Quan) invaded one place (Hefei) 14 times, that is leaving aside Sun Quan's many other invasions against Wei. That is leaving out the invasions by other Sun rulers. That is leaving out that Wu vs Wei became a yearly invent at one point

Whereas Shu once Liu Bei took Yi, their record vs Wei is: Liu Bei 1. Zhuge Liang 5. Jiang Wan 0. Fei Yi 2. Jiang Wei 9. Sun Quan on one city did 14 invasions. Shu in their entire history after taking of Yi managed 17. I think it's fair to say when you count invasions by other Sun's, invasions by other offices, invasions of Wei's other cities and fortresses, Wu attacked Wei a lot more then Shu did.

If Wu is defensive by constantly attacking Wei, what is the less attacking Shu?

Wei still had strong forces and Wu was in decline due to internal issues in the post Rui-sera. That is not a signal of ambition or lack of.

ust as the real history recorded. Wu never had any dangerous threat across their border, if you consider generals like Zhuge Dan, Wang Ling and Guanqiu Jian a threat, i beg you to reconsider, since they're not that resourceful as Deng Ai, Chen Tai and other that Jiang Wei had to face. Meaning, even Wei themselves never seen Wu as threat despite their battle against them. Only Yang Hu who poses as threat to Wu's border, but Yang Hu himself are rarely attack Wu border.


Shu faced 2-3 invasions (Cao Shuang's, it's fall and maybe one more that has slipped my mind?) in their entire history. Cao Pi personally lead invasions of Wei Wu twice. That is just the invasions he himself commanded. One Emperor (who spent first part of reign as Wu's ally and who died before his 225 orders that would have allowed them to be regularly in the south could be carried out) invades Wu as equal or one less then Shu-Han faced in their entire history. Yet Wu didn't face any real dangerous threats?

Of the three you mentioned, all three were experienced commanders (and suffered from the "opposed Simas so done down" issue), Guanqiu Jian for example made his name in Korea. Wu faced the likes of the Chen family, Zhang Liao, Man Chong, Cao Xiu, three generations of Sima, three Wei Emperor's, all the way to Yang Hu and Du Yu's day. Now I'm not going to try to diminish Wei's generals in the west, the likes of Xiahou Yuan through to Deng Ai were impressive figures but those used against Wu were hardly worse.

Wu faced constant invasions as Wei's main target was Wu as they considered Wu their biggest rival and threat, it is where they focused their resources, their time and even their rulers. Shu never had to face the imperial troops led by the Emperor (or the controller), Wu did with Wei ruler after Wei ruler.
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Re: Who is stronger, Wu or Shu?

Unread postby Li_Shengsun » Mon Feb 24, 2020 3:05 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:Gongsun clan and they tended to use alliances with those with horses to try to get such trades.

Where is that from that Wu were mostly archers and didn't use normal heavy armour in the umpteen miliatry camapigns they fought on land?


Okay the Gongsun, my question is. Did they (Wu) get the horses?

Okay, please explain to me if they were all wearing heavy armor and all heavy infantry. how they do the naval battle? throwing spears and swords at the enemy?
How long did they transport all those heavy armored soldiers to frontline when they launch an attack? theyre heavy armored remember, all sea transport would be slowed down considerably. Now you indirectly pointed out why Wei managed to reinforcing their base when Wu attack.

That is a fictional thing from the novel

I think your thinking of thundercarts (which I think is only mentioned at Guandu). While it isn't 100% clear what that meant, I think De Crespigny's mobile ballitsta theory is more likely


i see..

its does categorized as Traction Trebuchets, the Wei just called them as Thundercarts. Its only seen in action on Guandu bc its immobile.
wasnt mobile ballistae comes later, on Ma Jun's era? I remember he invented that Differential Gear Chariot thing. He also the one who put that Trebuchets on Wheels as well. :?


Rarely fought an offensive battle? One Wu ruler (Sun Quan) invaded one place (Hefei) 14 times, that is leaving aside Sun Quan's many other invasions against Wei. That is leaving out the invasions by other Sun rulers. That is leaving out that Wu vs Wei became a yearly invent

Whereas Shu once Liu Bei took Yi, their record vs Wei is: Liu Bei 1. Zhuge Liang 5. Jiang Wan 0. Fei Yi 2. Jiang Wei 9. Sun Quan on one city did 14 invasions. Shu in their entire history after taking of Yi managed 17. I think it's fair to say when you count invasions by other Sun's, invasions by other offices, invasions of Wei's other cities and fortresses, Wu attacked Wei a lot more then Shu did.

If Wu is defensive by constantly attacking Wei, what is the less attacking Shu?

Wei still had strong forces and Wu was in decline due to internal issues in the post Rui-sera. That is not a signal of ambition or lack of.


if you considers luring/enticing enemy forces to enter and fought on your familiar ground as offensive battle, then yeah. Wu did luring enemy forces into fighting on their territory, where their strong feat is at. You have more chance on winning on your territory than on enemy territory. But did you gain controls of enemy territory if they defeated? no. you only weakened their forces. Sun Quan lack of such follow up battle after they win.

yes, he did attack same places more than 10 times, with a large number that is (100k+ troops), but they were always countered by smaller number of forces. even with only 800 men small at a time.

Shu faced 2-3 invasions (Cao Shuang's, it's fall and maybe one more that has slipped my mind?) in their entire history. Cao Pi personally lead invasions of Wei Wu twice. That is just the invasions he himself commanded. One Emperor (or spent first part of reign as Wu's ally and who died before his 225 orders that would have allowed them to be regularly in the south could be carried out) invades Wu as equal or one less then Shu-Han faced in their entire history. Yet Wu didn't face any real dangerous threats?

Of the three you mentioned, all three were experienced commanders (and suffered from the "opposed Simas so done down" issue), Guanqiu Jian for example made his name in Korea. Wu faced the likes of the Chen family, Zhang Liao, Man Chong, Cao Xiu, three generations of Sima, three Wei Emperor's, all the way to Yang Hu and Du Yu's day. Now I'm not going to try to diminish Wei's generals in the west, the likes of Xiahou Yuan through to Deng Ai were impressive figures but those used against Wu were hardly worse.

Wu faced constant invasions as Wei's main target was Wu as they considered Wu their biggest rival and threat, it is where they focused their resources, their time and even their rulers. Shu never had to face the imperial troops led by the Emperor (or the controller), Wu did with Wei ruler after Wei ruler.


You forget what Wei currently lack at that time. Naval Forces and adaptability to Southland Weather.

Cao Pi failed in attacking Wu because Wu are currently in high morale after their great victory over Shu at Xiaoting in 222. You forget that Cao Pi rejected Liu Ye's advice in attacking Sun Quan on second front when Liu Bei declared war on Sun Quan, he even granted him title King of Wu and ultimately misses his only chance in destroying Wu once for all. And after Liu Bei defeated, Sun Quan broke his ties and promise with Wei (i.e. sending Sun Deng as hostage), declaring independence, enraging Cao Pi, thus led to Cao Pi's failed expedition on Wu.

Cao Pi did invaded Wu four times during the span of 223 - 225. All were ended in failure because, sorry to mention again, Naval forces, rough Southland Weather and condition. The only one of the four thats never fought/minimal casualty are on Ruxu since they immediately withdraw after the other two invasion failed.

So far i know of the three officers you mention (Zhang Liao, Man Chong & Cao Xiu) two of them never invaded Wu, and the other one were enticed and forced to fought on Wu's land.

hey dont get me wrong, i like this Cao loyalist. Guanqiu Jian is a skilled general of Wei, having a successful career off north. its too bad his rebellion are premature, hes not ready to engage punitive Sima's forces against him. and no, im sorry to mix him up, he never had any battle against Wu nor he does posses threat to them.

Neither does Zhuge Dan, since his only battle against Wu were a failed one (Battle of Dongxing) before he was reassigned somewhere else at a time.

The only one (of three name i mention) that actually did damage to Wu is Wang Ling (did beaten Sun Quan with Zhang Liao, rescued Cao Xiu from Shiting, beaten Wu's veteran Quan Cong).
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Re: Who is stronger, Wu or Shu?

Unread postby Sun Fin » Mon Feb 24, 2020 6:18 pm

Li_Shengsun wrote:
Rarely fought an offensive battle? One Wu ruler (Sun Quan) invaded one place (Hefei) 14 times, that is leaving aside Sun Quan's many other invasions against Wei. That is leaving out the invasions by other Sun rulers. That is leaving out that Wu vs Wei became a yearly invent

Whereas Shu once Liu Bei took Yi, their record vs Wei is: Liu Bei 1. Zhuge Liang 5. Jiang Wan 0. Fei Yi 2. Jiang Wei 9. Sun Quan on one city did 14 invasions. Shu in their entire history after taking of Yi managed 17. I think it's fair to say when you count invasions by other Sun's, invasions by other offices, invasions of Wei's other cities and fortresses, Wu attacked Wei a lot more then Shu did.

If Wu is defensive by constantly attacking Wei, what is the less attacking Shu?

Wei still had strong forces and Wu was in decline due to internal issues in the post Rui-sera. That is not a signal of ambition or lack of.


if you considers luring/enticing enemy forces to enter and fought on your familiar ground as offensive battle, then yeah. Wu did luring enemy forces into fighting on their territory, where their strong feat is at. You have more chance on winning on your territory than on enemy territory. But did you gain controls of enemy territory if they defeated? no. you only weakened their forces. Sun Quan lack of such follow up battle after they win.

yes, he did attack same places more than 10 times, with a large number that is (100k+ troops), but they were always countered by smaller number of forces. even with only 800 men small at a time.


I feel like in this last sentence you've kinda moved the goalposts of the argument. You initially said that in terms of aggressiveness Shu were more so. Yet you've now conceded that Sun Quan attacked Hefei repeatedly, almost more times that all of Shu's Northern campaigns. Now we can debate on effectiveness of those attacks, but on sheer volume Wu were the more aggressive.
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