Guan Yu..your opinion on him

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What do you think about Guan Yu

I like him, he is been underestimated to much..
46
48%
I don't like him...he is overrated..
49
52%
 
Total votes : 95

Re: Guan Yu..your opinion on him

Unread postby Sun Fin » Fri Apr 12, 2019 2:53 pm

Sorry for the late reply!

mendedties wrote:
Sun Fin wrote:I think he was a superb warrior, his killing of a named officer is almost unique.


I see this argument frequently and the logic eludes me. Are you saying anyone who kills a named officer is a great warrior, so that any other time a named officer died in battle some unnamed great warrior was behind it?

An officer dying in battle was not unique. One officer dying directly at the hands of another was, but that's just probability. Lots more common soldiers than officers on the field.


It's a fair question. I think any officer death, especially a high ranking one, in battle is impressive. Even more so when another named officer is involved, especially so in this circumstance. I'll explain why:

General's of The South says:

It needed an elite corps of highly seasoned fighters to open up avenues of attack so that the bulk of the soldiers could then swarm in behind them, sustain the momentum of the attack, and exploit the results. These battle formations were nonetheless commanded by men of courage, who were themselves versed in [491] the martial arts and who personally led their soldiers in valiant charges.


This wasn't the quote I was looking for but it'll do. Basically armies were made up of conscripted masses with the best soldiers being gathered into "elite corps", these corps were formed around the best officers. People like Guan Yu, and Yan Liang. This basically means the hardest fighting happened around the named officers, like Yan Liang. Therefore killing an officer did take skill.

I said that I think it's particularly special when done by another named officer. Well that's because they are surrounded by their own unite, also elite fighters, if they are actually the one to land the killing blow that says they must be special, most of the time you'd presume it would be their bodyguards who would do the killing.

I also said I thought Guan Yu's action was particularly impressive. That's because battle hadn't been joined yet. Yan Liang's elite group had't been engaged, distracted or separated from Yan Liang. They were still around him. Guan Yu rode into an elite unite, killed their leader and made it out alive. That is a terrific achievement.
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Re: Guan Yu..your opinion on him

Unread postby Li_Shengsun » Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:04 am

Dong Zhou wrote:how can you beat someone several times as you claimed then (and one beating here) and not win? Pang De hit with an arrow, that is all that is recorded. Not that he was being successful or having the happer hand

It is possible that with different tactics, Guan Yu wins. Whether yours would have worked, we will never know. Once his base is gone, supplies in the field becomes a problem

That would seem to have the decision of commanders on the ground rather then Guan Yu, presumably they felt they couldt stop Xu Huang's forces thus failing to challenge.

Scouts don't automatically solve "which if the nearby camps is he actually going to attack", there isn't any suggestion Guan Yu wasn't using scouts either

Xu Huang seems to have had a good idea where it was. The lure out was probably to ensure he could take out some of Guan Yu's forces before a direct attack on the strongly fortified headquarters, better to take them on when weakened and morale is with you.

The texts suggest the ten detachments had actually joined Xu Huang's army before Xu Huang attacked


beat several times? eh, because he cant make a headway against him, is that reason not enough? its true, Pang De did wound Guan Yu once, but it doesn't say how many times they met in the attempt to besiege both city. If Guan Yu could slain Pang De the way he did with one of Yuan Shao's brute, i wouldnt said "Pang De beat his asses off several times". I guess even the mighty had lose his fang, can't even bite anymore even against Pang De :lol:

Well, commander on the ground is sadly to say, Guan Yu himself. theres only few officer involved in that battle, Guan Ping, Zhao Lei, Liao Hua and himself. I hardly think the other three would daringly makes a decision for Guan Yu knowing how stubborn he is, whoever he was with at that time. Its Guan Yu who makes a decision, its him who thought they wouldn't withstand a chance against Xu Huang even when he splitting his force that time.
Xu Huang do split his force to save both fortress.

No idea how big this ten detachment is though, pretty doubt its as big as Guan Yu's men. Detachment usually mean hundreds to thousands of men of a time (now you know why Wu Lan and other get killed by Cao Zhang). Even if he know, he wouldn't recklessly charge to a fortified encampment only to be pinned by Guan Yu from different direction, which why he needed Guan Yu to act as his buffer so he could enter the camp easily.

------

When i read again, the span of time between Liu Bei took Hanzhong, Meng Da sent to occupy Shangyong and Guan Yu attack Fancheng is only three months. With Hou Yin rebellion only gap for 3-4 months before. I think its asking alot for Meng Da to sent a reinforcement when he only occupy Shangyong for less than a month, people like Shen Yi and others who are pro Cao wouldve revolt when he left with few trusted personel or defect when he sent them to battlefield as reinforcement. But Liu Bei and even ZGL doesn't seems to understand that, wasn't its ZGL who badmouthing Meng Da when they heard he refused to sent reinforcement.

If Guan Yu a good leader, he would make a hard choice to travel a far distance toward ally territory (Meng Da) not traversing dangerous territory owned by your ally-turn-enemy. Thats why i said even Lu Bu better than him, to be frankly i liked Lu Bu more than Guan Yu. I wonder why people worship him so much to the point get angry even bordering violence when get criticized.

EDIT - Sorry didn't reply for long time, was busy at workplace.
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Re: Guan Yu..your opinion on him

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri Apr 19, 2019 5:46 pm

No problem at all, life gets busy I understand

beat several times? eh, because he cant make a headway against him, is that reason not enough? its true, Pang De did wound Guan Yu once, but it doesn't say how many times they met in the attempt to besiege both city. If Guan Yu could slain Pang De the way he did with one of Yuan Shao's brute, i wouldnt said "Pang De beat his asses off several times". I guess even the mighty had lose his fang, can't even bite anymore even against Pang De :lol:


Exactly, we don't know how many times they met. We don't know timescale, we don't know if that was a one off or part of several clashes. We can't say Pang De was beating Guan Yu, all we can say is there was one moment where Pang De wounded Guan Yu

Officer on officer kills were extremely rare and Cic's roles very different from the warrior part of vanguard Guan Yu was being at Boma. There isn't a sense in the texts that Guan Yu's strength had declined

Well, commander on the ground is sadly to say, Guan Yu himself. theres only few officer involved in that battle, Guan Ping, Zhao Lei, Liao Hua and himself. I hardly think the other three would daringly makes a decision for Guan Yu knowing how stubborn he is, whoever he was with at that time. Its Guan Yu who makes a decision, its him who thought they wouldn't withstand a chance against Xu Huang even when he splitting his force that time.
Xu Huang do split his force to save both fortress.


We don't know any of the Shu generals names at Fan I believe. We know a few of those with Guan Yu in Jing but not if any of them were at Fan

I doubt Guan Yu was the commander of that force that retreated rather then fight Xu Huang. Guan Yu's main camp was at the seigelines, I would be very surprised if Guan Yu left the siege and took personal command of a detachment that might or might not face a Wei army while the records wording gives sense they were not under Guan Yu. I would also be surprised if the officer on the ground had no tactical flexibility whatsoever and the records don't put the decision on Guan Yu


No idea how big this ten detachment is though, pretty doubt its as big as Guan Yu's men. Detachment usually mean hundreds to thousands of men of a time (now you know why Wu Lan and other get killed by Cao Zhang). Even if he know, he wouldn't recklessly charge to a fortified encampment only to be pinned by Guan Yu from different direction, which why he needed Guan Yu to act as his buffer so he could enter the camp easily.


Well ten detachment added to an existing army, that could have tilted the odds (plus combined with Cao Ren's forces). Guan Yu was inside the main camp before the attack on the outside camps so if the idea was to prevent Guan Yu arriving from the outside, it would seem a waste since he was already inside. I maintain it was probably to "ensure he could take out some of Guan Yu's forces before a direct attack on the strongly fortified headquarters, better to take them on when weakened and morale is with you."

When i read again, the span of time between Liu Bei took Hanzhong, Meng Da sent to occupy Shangyong and Guan Yu attack Fancheng is only three months. With Hou Yin rebellion only gap for 3-4 months before. I think its asking alot for Meng Da to sent a reinforcement when he only occupy Shangyong for less than a month, people like Shen Yi and others who are pro Cao wouldve revolt when he left with few trusted personel or defect when he sent them to battlefield as reinforcement. But Liu Bei and even ZGL doesn't seems to understand that, wasn't its ZGL who badmouthing Meng Da when they heard he refused to sent reinforcement.


I think it is reasonable for Guan Yu to ask, there were two armies in Shangyong and if he doesn't ask then he doesn't get reinforcements. It seems reasonable for the others to look at the local situation and refused. I don't know the exact length of gap (less then year, I strongly suspect more then a month) between taking of Shangyang and Guan Yu's advance. I would also say Shen Yi was probably not particularly pro Cao

Zhuge Liang only spoke against Liu Feng and that was on an entirely separate matter, Liu Bei wasn't happy with their decision (not unfair that he judges the situation differently) but took no action

If Guan Yu a good leader, he would make a hard choice to travel a far distance toward ally territory (Meng Da) not traversing dangerous territory owned by your ally-turn-enemy. Thats why i said even Lu Bu better than him, to be frankly i liked Lu Bu more than Guan Yu. I wonder why people worship him so much to the point get angry even bordering violence when get criticized.


Guan Yu was going, as Wei officers discussed, to come to the relief of his forces in Jing, he probably didn't know the extent of how things had collapsed. I'm not sure most would look well on Guan Yu if he withdrew from Fan and then went straight to Shangyong rather then what he would believed was his besieged officers

Nothing wrong with liking Lu Bu. I like Lu Bu, your not going to be judged for liking a figure. He was a proven bad leader though.

From what I said about his being worshippedWouldn't be the only time flawed figures were worshipped in history. I think the reasons he got, way way after his death, worshipped as I understand it: due to things like his famed bond with his brother, his reputation in his time for honour lived on, the Han popularity in the centuries of civil war and outside invasion that followed the 3kingdoms added lustre to his name and that his being God of War wasn't going to put anyone in an awkward position in regards their own clan/empires history.. It isn't right people get that way about any historical figure but that isn't on him
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Re: Guan Yu..your opinion on him

Unread postby Li_Shengsun » Fri May 24, 2019 3:01 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:Exactly, we don't know how many times they met. We don't know timescale, we don't know if that was a one off or part of several clashes. We can't say Pang De was beating Guan Yu, all we can say is there was one moment where Pang De wounded Guan Yu

Officer on officer kills were extremely rare and Cic's roles very different from the warrior part of vanguard Guan Yu was being at Boma. There isn't a sense in the texts that Guan Yu's strength had declined


I see. well, he was still on 40s on Boma, comparing on Fan when he was on 50-60s (possibly older). i think there was a decline of strength. Otherwise, he would be a superhuman like LGZ described him about.


We don't know any of the Shu generals names at Fan I believe. We know a few of those with Guan Yu in Jing but not if any of them were at Fan

I doubt Guan Yu was the commander of that force that retreated rather then fight Xu Huang. Guan Yu's main camp was at the seigelines, I would be very surprised if Guan Yu left the siege and took personal command of a detachment that might or might not face a Wei army while the records wording gives sense they were not under Guan Yu. I would also be surprised if the officer on the ground had no tactical flexibility whatsoever and the records don't put the decision on Guan Yu.


You're right we don't, but the record did say it was Guan Yu who besieged Fan, while send the other to besiege Xiangyang. I cant picture Guan Ping or Liao Hua would issuing retreat if they were the one who lead the van on Fan, since both men are pretty much obedient and would rather to put their life on the line than retreating, and Zhao Lei, well he was more or less a minister, i cant picture him being the one who led the van.
But knowing both Guan Yu and Xu Huang relation during his service on Cao Cao, its quite possible that Guan Yu know Xu Huang's strength and wanted to use more cautious approach, but his decision was wrong.


Well ten detachment added to an existing army, that could have tilted the odds (plus combined with Cao Ren's forces). Guan Yu was inside the main camp before the attack on the outside camps so if the idea was to prevent Guan Yu arriving from the outside, it would seem a waste since he was already inside. I maintain it was probably to "ensure he could take out some of Guan Yu's forces before a direct attack on the strongly fortified headquarters, better to take them on when weakened and morale is with you."


Maybe right or maybe wrong. take note that Cao Ren's men was pretty much exhausted or reduced number during his time in quelling Hou Yin's rebellion. To postpone invasion on Jingzhou, is most likely Hou Yin fought hard enough to reduce those number below certain threshold to postponing an invasion. So Cao Ren's men are not in condition fought an open battle. Yu Jin's forces are wiped out, so its up to Xu Huang relief forces themselves to lift both siege.

Take note there was two separate camp that time, they rather far from each other in which why Guan Yu's weak point is all about. If Guan Yu was inside on one of the camp, Xu Huang could just storm the other one. The record did mention that Xu Huang spread rumors about such attack, and Guan Yu took the bait.


I think it is reasonable for Guan Yu to ask, there were two armies in Shangyong and if he doesn't ask then he doesn't get reinforcements. It seems reasonable for the others to look at the local situation and refused. I don't know the exact length of gap (less then year, I strongly suspect more then a month) between taking of Shangyang and Guan Yu's advance. I would also say Shen Yi was probably not particularly pro Cao

Zhuge Liang only spoke against Liu Feng and that was on an entirely separate matter, Liu Bei wasn't happy with their decision (not unfair that he judges the situation differently) but took no action


Well, there were two armies, but we don't know how many it is. Shangyong is newly occupied territory, they need time to fully gain control of new territory. Yeah, you were right, Shen Yi and other wasn't Pro Cao, but instead they're newly recruited locale officer.

Hou Yin rebellion was on Late Autumn 218 and ended in Late Winter 219 (Cao Ren sent to massacre Hou Yin was on late winter 219). Liu Bei won Hanzhong on Late Spring 219, Meng Da sent to occupy Shangyong was on Early Summer 219. Guan Yu invaded Fancheng was on Late Summer 219. its more or less a month interval.

Well, he did badmouthing Liu Feng, but before Meng Da defect, he did mention about someone on capital (chengdu) was slandering them both. I cant picture it was Liu Bei, otherwise Liu Bei would be the most ungrateful man ever lived, sorry no offense, because Meng Da was among the man who persuaded Liu Zhang to surrender and was also a fierce supporter of Liu Bei. I cant picture Fa Zheng either to be the man who slandering Meng Da, he may be well known for abusing his position, but it never mentioned he was on bad term with Meng Da. I say ZGL was because he was notoriously known for bad judge of character and he did it not only once, but more than that.

Nothing wrong with liking Lu Bu. I like Lu Bu, your not going to be judged for liking a figure. He was a proven bad leader though.


Well, im not saying Lu Bu is a good leader either, but the way he judged his situation, he seemed better in saving his lives than Guan Yu did. come to think of it, his situation between Yuan Shao and Zhang Yang was quite similar to Meng Da and Sun Quan situation, though Lu Bu wasn't commanding a great number of troop that time.


From what I said about his being worshippedWouldn't be the only time flawed figures were worshipped in history. I think the reasons he got, way way after his death, worshipped as I understand it: due to things like his famed bond with his brother, his reputation in his time for honour lived on, the Han popularity in the centuries of civil war and outside invasion that followed the 3kingdoms added lustre to his name and that his being God of War wasn't going to put anyone in an awkward position in regards their own clan/empires history.. It isn't right people get that way about any historical figure but that isn't on him


really? thought it was because of LGZ's writing of him so he become famous. Take note, there wasn't many sources about 3Kingdom that time, only Chen Shou's record and few other (like Wei, Wu and Jin). though Chen Shou's contain a rather critic about them instead of praises. and not to mention Guan Yu was a Han figure and hero. So its more all about politics really.
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Re: Guan Yu..your opinion on him

Unread postby Sun Fin » Fri May 24, 2019 3:18 pm

LGZ used existing folklore and legends in the writing of his novel. He built upon and gave legitimacy to the already existing legends that surrounded Guan Yu. He didn't make them up from scratch.
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Re: Guan Yu..your opinion on him

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Fri May 31, 2019 7:09 am


I see. well, he was still on 40s on Boma, comparing on Fan when he was on 50-60s (possibly older). i think there was a decline of strength. Otherwise, he would be a superhuman like LGZ described him about.


Fair point

You're right we don't, but the record did say it was Guan Yu who besieged Fan, while send the other to besiege Xiangyang. I cant picture Guan Ping or Liao Hua would issuing retreat if they were the one who lead the van on Fan, since both men are pretty much obedient and would rather to put their life on the line than retreating, and Zhao Lei, well he was more or less a minister, i cant picture him being the one who led the van.
But knowing both Guan Yu and Xu Huang relation during his service on Cao Cao, its quite possible that Guan Yu know Xu Huang's strength and wanted to use more cautious approach, but his decision was wrong.


Sorry, I meant subordinate officers as yes, Guan Yu is named.

We know nothing of Guan Ping to really anything about how he would act in any situation, Liao Hua held civil rank at the time. I doubt whoever held the independent command was given no tactical leeway at all

The records give the reason why that group retreated, they fear they were going to be cut off at the rear.

Maybe right or maybe wrong. take note that Cao Ren's men was pretty much exhausted or reduced number during his time in quelling Hou Yin's rebellion. To postpone invasion on Jingzhou, is most likely Hou Yin fought hard enough to reduce those number below certain threshold to postponing an invasion. So Cao Ren's men are not in condition fought an open battle. Yu Jin's forces are wiped out, so its up to Xu Huang relief forces themselves to lift both siege.

Take note there was two separate camp that time, they rather far from each other in which why Guan Yu's weak point is all about. If Guan Yu was inside on one of the camp, Xu Huang could just storm the other one. The record did mention that Xu Huang spread rumors about such attack, and Guan Yu took the bait.


I don't believe Wei were planning to invade Jing. Sure, Cao Ren's men were likely tired and depleted after battling Hou Yin and the flood but those were still numbers that Wei could use to combine with Xu Huang

Yes I was discussing them as two separate camps. They can't have been that far apart given Guan Yu arrived in time and so Xu Huang couldn't just storm the outside camp, yes he did set out rumours he was going to attack main camp to make his task easier. None of this supports your arguments that Xu Huang didn't know where Guan Yu was or that Guan Yu was to act as Xu Huang's buffer. Like I said, it was probably to "ensure he could take out some of Guan Yu's forces before a direct attack on the strongly fortified headquarters, better to take them on when weakened and morale is with you."

Well, there were two armies, but we don't know how many it is. Shangyong is newly occupied territory, they need time to fully gain control of new territory. Yeah, you were right, Shen Yi and other wasn't Pro Cao, but instead they're newly recruited locale officer.

Hou Yin rebellion was on Late Autumn 218 and ended in Late Winter 219 (Cao Ren sent to massacre Hou Yin was on late winter 219). Liu Bei won Hanzhong on Late Spring 219, Meng Da sent to occupy Shangyong was on Early Summer 219. Guan Yu invaded Fancheng was on Late Summer 219. its more or less a month interval.

Well, he did badmouthing Liu Feng, but before Meng Da defect, he did mention about someone on capital (chengdu) was slandering them both. I cant picture it was Liu Bei, otherwise Liu Bei would be the most ungrateful man ever lived, sorry no offense, because Meng Da was among the man who persuaded Liu Zhang to surrender and was also a fierce supporter of Liu Bei. I cant picture Fa Zheng either to be the man who slandering Meng Da, he may be well known for abusing his position, but it never mentioned he was on bad term with Meng Da. I say ZGL was because he was notoriously known for bad judge of character and he did it not only once, but more than that.


Yes impossible to know the numbers, agreed with their argument about needing to establish control

Fair enough on dates

I'm not sure practical advice is badmouthing. Meng Da's letter was after defection and Meng Da was right to be concerned for Liu Feng's position. Liu Bei was known to be very angry and no I don't think that makes him the most ungrateful man, it was Jian Yong who persuaded Liu Zhang to surrender and though he backed Liu Bei early, he wasn't one of Liu Bei's more important Yi allies. Frankly a lot of people could have read Liu Bei's mood and turned on the duo or themselves been unhappy with the duo

Zhuge Liang's reputation for bad misjudgement as a general rule of thumb seems a cultural and "views inadvertently shaped by novel" rather then historical. He gets blamed for Ma Su (rightly), Jiang Wei (wrongly), Wei Yan (wrongly), Zhuge Liang could be guilty of partisan but he also promoted great talents like Jiang Wan, Fei Yi, Wang Lian, he kept Wei Yan and Yang Yi manageable. Like all he his mistakes (should Wu Ban have got bigger role, Ma Su) but he had a lot of hits. His assessment of Liu Feng situation seems to fit political reality and what we know of the characters of those involved

Well, im not saying Lu Bu is a good leader either, but the way he judged his situation, he seemed better in saving his lives than Guan Yu did. come to think of it, his situation between Yuan Shao and Zhang Yang was quite similar to Meng Da and Sun Quan situation, though Lu Bu wasn't commanding a great number of troop that time.


I'm not sure there is any evidence Lu Bu was better at saving lives of his men. I really don't get that comparison

really? thought it was because of LGZ's writing of him so he become famous. Take note, there wasn't many sources about 3Kingdom that time, only Chen Shou's record and few other (like Wei, Wu and Jin). though Chen Shou's contain a rather critic about them instead of praises. and not to mention Guan Yu was a Han figure and hero. So its more all about politics really.


He was famous within his own time as the records, the SGZ, ZZTJ, comments from figures at the time, De Crespigny make clear. Sun Fin is right though, the cultural fame that went beyond the histories was going on way before the novel, LGZ combined existing tales about Shu figures into one narrative and added to them (I would say the novel Guan Yu is more complex then how he gets viewed culturally as well)
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Re: Guan Yu..your opinion on him

Unread postby Li_Shengsun » Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:30 am

Dong Zhou wrote:The records give the reason why that group retreated, they fear they were going to be cut off at the rear.


thats fair.

I don't believe Wei were planning to invade Jing. Sure, Cao Ren's men were likely tired and depleted after battling Hou Yin and the flood but those were still numbers that Wei could use to combine with Xu Huang

Yes I was discussing them as two separate camps. They can't have been that far apart given Guan Yu arrived in time and so Xu Huang couldn't just storm the outside camp, yes he did set out rumours he was going to attack main camp to make his task easier. None of this supports your arguments that Xu Huang didn't know where Guan Yu was or that Guan Yu was to act as Xu Huang's buffer. Like I said, it was probably to "ensure he could take out some of Guan Yu's forces before a direct attack on the strongly fortified headquarters, better to take them on when weakened and morale is with you."


Well, the record did said that Wei was planning an invasion to took Jing, that was the reason an increase of military personnel on Xiangyang and Fan, but those plan was abruptly canceled when Hou Yin rebelled, and those military personnel are redirected to quell the rebellion instead.

The reason why i said Xu Huang didnt know where exactly Guan Yu was because there is two separate camp, so he thought of that plan in order to take out both at once. Its pretty much the same outcome as yours, prob my explanation is quite vague and wrong.

I'm not sure practical advice is badmouthing. Meng Da's letter was after defection and Meng Da was right to be concerned for Liu Feng's position. Liu Bei was known to be very angry and no I don't think that makes him the most ungrateful man, it was Jian Yong who persuaded Liu Zhang to surrender and though he backed Liu Bei early, he wasn't one of Liu Bei's more important Yi allies. Frankly a lot of people could have read Liu Bei's mood and turned on the duo or themselves been unhappy with the duo

Zhuge Liang's reputation for bad misjudgement as a general rule of thumb seems a cultural and "views inadvertently shaped by novel" rather then historical. He gets blamed for Ma Su (rightly), Jiang Wei (wrongly), Wei Yan (wrongly), Zhuge Liang could be guilty of partisan but he also promoted great talents like Jiang Wan, Fei Yi, Wang Lian, he kept Wei Yan and Yang Yi manageable. Like all he his mistakes (should Wu Ban have got bigger role, Ma Su) but he had a lot of hits. His assessment of Liu Feng situation seems to fit political reality and what we know of the characters of those involved


Jian Yong? how could possibly an emissary from Liu Bei side could ended up on Liu Zhang's wall after all that long battle even listen to him? i think you mistaken him of someone else?

Ah yea, the novel portrayal, i see. But so far i know of, its not just those three names you mention though. He did overly praised Li Yan as well, and also saving the harsh mouthed Li Miao from Liu Bei's wrath. Those two men ended up failed him. One failed in delivering supplies, the other celebrating on his (ZGL's) death. Ironic don't you think?

I'm not sure there is any evidence Lu Bu was better at saving lives of his men. I really don't get that comparison


Was there any evidence Guan Yu saving the lives of his men on that battle? It's your reason i don't understand, why bringing the subject of saving lives of their men. Do i need to explain everything in detail so you can understand why i comparing Lu Bu's situation with Guan Yu.

If Lu Bu went back to question Yuan Shao after he (Lu Bu) found out that Yuan Shao wanted to assassinate him, what would Yuan Shao do? he'd surely find a way to kill Lu Bu again after feigning ignorance. Instead Lu Bu chose to ran and seek refuge from Zhang Yang. How's that different from Guan Yu's situation on Fan?

He led his army to retake Jing after found out Jing was taken by Wu, what happened i don't need to explain right? If Guan Yu chose to led his army and regroup with Meng Da, sure he'd get scolded by Liu Bei, and I don't think ZGL would dare suggesting to execute him, but he'd get another chance to retake Jing on the other day. Now see the similarity?

He was famous within his own time as the records, the SGZ, ZZTJ, comments from figures at the time, De Crespigny make clear. Sun Fin is right though, the cultural fame that went beyond the histories was going on way before the novel, LGZ combined existing tales about Shu figures into one narrative and added to them (I would say the novel Guan Yu is more complex then how he gets viewed culturally as well)


i see.
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Re: Guan Yu..your opinion on him

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:26 pm

Well, the record did said that Wei was planning an invasion to took Jing, that was the reason an increase of military personnel on Xiangyang and Fan, but those plan was abruptly canceled when Hou Yin rebelled, and those military personnel are redirected to quell the rebellion instead.

The reason why i said Xu Huang didnt know where exactly Guan Yu was because there is two separate camp, so he thought of that plan in order to take out both at once. Its pretty much the same outcome as yours, prob my explanation is quite vague and wrong.


I have completely missed that Wei was planning to invade Jin, where in the records is that from?

I may disagree with your interpretation but it wasn't vague and you set out your version of his plan well don't worry

Jian Yong? how could possibly an emissary from Liu Bei side could ended up on Liu Zhang's wall after all that long battle even listen to him? i think you mistaken him of someone else?

Ah yea, the novel portrayal, i see. But so far i know of, its not just those three names you mention though. He did overly praised Li Yan as well, and also saving the harsh mouthed Li Miao from Liu Bei's wrath. Those two men ended up failed him. One failed in delivering supplies, the other celebrating on his (ZGL's) death. Ironic don't you think?


Jian Yong SGZ When Xiān-zhǔ entered Yìzhōu [211] Liú Zhāng met Yōng, and greatly favored him. Later when Xiān-zhǔ was besieging Chéngdū, he sent Yōng to persuade Zhāng [to surrender], and Zhāng thereupon with Yōng went out on the same carriage and left the city to surrender. Xiān-zhǔ appointed Yōng to General Manifesting Virtue.

It wasn't unknown for (helped if right envoy) defenders and attackers to have such figures.

True, just the most common ones (I should also add he used his officer core badly during first NC) but thanks for two intresting choices. Li Yan (supply issues, given Hanzhong, is not so much the issue, more his reaction to it) was Liu Bei's pick and held major power, Zhuge Liang's praise for the man might need to be tempered by the political situation. Zhuge Liang was in no position, particularly after first NC to attack such a powerful figure in the court.

Li Miao, I don't have a full translation of to give a full judgement. His advice not to execute may well have been right (new regime, kill a loyalist of old guard, not a great look), Li Miao does seem to have been an antagonistic sod though. Doesn't mean don't execute was a bad move

Was there any evidence Guan Yu saving the lives of his men on that battle? It's your reason i don't understand, why bringing the subject of saving lives of their men. Do i need to explain everything in detail so you can understand why i comparing Lu Bu's situation with Guan Yu.


None for Guan Yu (or ever in a retreat but same with Lu Bu). Your the one who brought up saving men Well, im not saying Lu Bu is a good leader either, but the way he judged his situation, he seemed better in saving his lives than Guan Yu did, I then questioned it. I didn't bring up saving men, you did.

Yes, when you make a unclear comparison and someone asks for clarity, you are expected to explain it. It is a forum, discussions get hindered when there is no understanding.

If Lu Bu went back to question Yuan Shao after he (Lu Bu) found out that Yuan Shao wanted to assassinate him, what would Yuan Shao do? he'd surely find a way to kill Lu Bu again after feigning ignorance. Instead Lu Bu chose to ran and seek refuge from Zhang Yang. How's that different from Guan Yu's situation on Fan?


It is a bad comparison. While there is no perfect comparison, Zhao Yun or Dong Zhuo might have been better

Yes Lu Bu going back to Yuan Shao would have been daft. Lu Bu was a free officer who could go where he liked, he had no obligations in the area and he was able to go with forces intact becuase nobody pursued. Guan Yu was Governor of Jing for Liu Bei, his lands had just fallen (though he didn't seem to know the full extent) and had obligations to try to retrieve the situation if he could. When he did retreat, he was attacked by enemy armies which makes retreat a lot harder then Lu Bu's intact leaving

He led his army to retake Jing after found out Jing was taken by Wu, what happened i don't need to explain right? If Guan Yu chose to led his army and regroup with Meng Da, sure he'd get scolded by Liu Bei, and I don't think ZGL would dare suggesting to execute him, but he'd get another chance to retake Jing on the other day. Now see the similarity?


Don't worry, you don't need to explain that.

De Crespigny in imperial warlords says by time Guan Yu retreated "by the time Guan Yu had heard of the attack and sought to turn back, he had been cut off from Liu Bei in Yi province" so retreat doesn't seem to have been a viable option, particularly given Guan Yu ended up dashing from place to place seeking refuge once his army deserted. In Generals of South "It was in fact possible, despite his disadvantage, that Guan Yu might be able to drive Lü Meng away, or at least compel another negotiated settlement. He was faced, however, not only by a military coup, but also by admirable propaganda." (referring to Lu Meng's use of solider families in Jing) and remarks later "By the eleventh month, a few weeks after the start of the operation, Guan Yu had been isolated in the region of Dangyang, between the Yangzi and the Han, with Sun Quan's forces on three sides and Cao Cao's at the north"

So Guan Yu went back to a position he had reason to think he could retrieve (so legging it would be abandoning his post, his men and duty) and by time that changed, he was cut off on all sides. I just don't think, with the knowledge Guan Yu likely had, that would have been the right thing to do.
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Re: Guan Yu..your opinion on him

Unread postby Li_Shengsun » Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:09 pm

Dong Zhou wrote:I have completely missed that Wei was planning to invade Jin, where in the records is that from? I may disagree with your interpretation but it wasn't vague and you set out your version of his plan well don't worry


I read it somewhere, couldnt recall it. prob from ZZTT.


Jian Yong SGZ When Xiān-zhǔ entered Yìzhōu [211] Liú Zhāng met Yōng, and greatly favored him. Later when Xiān-zhǔ was besieging Chéngdū, he sent Yōng to persuade Zhāng [to surrender], and Zhāng thereupon with Yōng went out on the same carriage and left the city to surrender. Xiān-zhǔ appointed Yōng to General Manifesting Virtue.


ahhh, i see. i missed that greatly favored part.

His advice not to execute may well have been right (new regime, kill a loyalist of old guard, not a great look), Li Miao does seem to have been an antagonistic sod though. Doesn't mean don't execute was a bad move


As reminder, Liu Bei DID execute few other old guard loyalist dude though, ZGL doesnt seems to be very hard headed in defending then as well. Li Miao is special for ZGL i guess. Special because his antagonistic behavior could raises ZGL's name t ppl on Shu, oops sorry, no offense. :D


I didn't bring up saving men, you did.


no, you did, im merely telling the difference of Lu Bu and Guan Yu situation. you're the one who misunderstood it because you tend to butcher the statement by pieces instead of reading the whole paragraph.


It is a bad comparison. While there is no perfect comparison, Zhao Yun or Dong Zhuo might have been better


Why Zhao Yun and Dong Zhuo would be better as comparison? as i remember correctly, both person never get onto the same situation as Guan Yu did.


De Crespigny in imperial warlords says by time Guan Yu retreated "by the time Guan Yu had heard of the attack and sought to turn back, he had been cut off from Liu Bei in Yi province" so retreat doesn't seem to have been a viable option, particularly given Guan Yu ended up dashing from place to place seeking refuge once his army deserted. In Generals of South "It was in fact possible, despite his disadvantage, that Guan Yu might be able to drive Lü Meng away, or at least compel another negotiated settlement. He was faced, however, not only by a military coup, but also by admirable propaganda." (referring to Lu Meng's use of solider families in Jing) and remarks later "By the eleventh month, a few weeks after the start of the operation, Guan Yu had been isolated in the region of Dangyang, between the Yangzi and the Han, with Sun Quan's forces on three sides and Cao Cao's at the north"

So Guan Yu went back to a position he had reason to think he could retrieve (so legging it would be abandoning his post, his men and duty) and by time that changed, he was cut off on all sides. I just don't think, with the knowledge Guan Yu likely had, that would have been the right thing to do.


Uh-huh, ok. cut off via south. theres no indication northern route is cut off either. Wei chooses to be on defensive, they wouldnt led their men to attack Guan Yu should he return back and make his way to Shangyong, doing that would create an opportunity for that crafty Lu Meng to took Xiangyang.

Now you see the problem in this statement?
"It was in fact possible, despite his disadvantage, that Guan Yu might be able to drive Lü Meng away, or at least compel another negotiated settlement. He was faced, however, not only by a military coup, but also by admirable propaganda."

Driven away or compel a negotiation. defeated by Military Coup and admirable propaganda.

That statement is like stating that Guan Yu's men are in high morale. Not even had any set back even after Xu Huang slaughtered many of his men and burned his camp, hes even has a great negotiation skill as well! Thats how you make a statement when you admire someone highly, sugar coated it. Nice! :lol:

I kept stating that Guan Yu's men are no longer in fighting condition after his asses get beaten by Xu Huang. and they said still possible to retake Jing back? Just how arrogant and stubborn Guan Yu is, i just cant imagine it. As I expected He was imagining himself to be Xiang Yu, thats great. :lol:
So far I know, Xiang Yu can win despite in disadvantageous position, because his men are well trained, able to cope in stressful situation and in high morale. Now you see why i mention about Guan Yu trying to mimic someone from Zuo Zhuan? :lol:

"A good leader and good general knows when to retreat and when to fight back" (i guess this one was Sun Zhu's)

To make an attempt on fighting when your morale is dwindling, is the same as reckless and suicidal. Therefore, Guan Yu is NOT good leader and general.

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to be honest, im kind of rejoicing when Guan Yu was captured and beheaded. I'm even praising Lu Meng to do a great job in shattering his pride. Just imagine his look when his men left him, when he was captured and about to be executed, that would the best scene, ever. Guan Yu wouldve prob thought this on his mind, he was needed everywhere and they wont killed him should he be captured (his recent experience with Cao Cao), the worst outcome of him dying on battlefield. capturing and executing him, shattered his imagination of being needed and died on battlefield. the best of the best outcome! Congratz Lu Meng! 8-)
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Re: Guan Yu..your opinion on him

Unread postby Dong Zhou » Thu Jun 20, 2019 7:39 am

Ok to try to clear one or two things up now to separate it from wider debate

You might want to edit your bit about the famed (in 3k circles) Wu liking historian Professor De Crespigny who has a habit of gently lampooning certain Shu figures as as a Guan Yu fan, that is not going to help your case. I believe your new to his work so unaware of his 3k inclinations but you may want to just alter your argument rather then accuse him of pro-Guan Yu bias with line like this "Thats how you make a statement when you admire someone highly, sugar coated it. ".

If you don't understand why someone says what they do, don't rush for a negative like biased but try to think why your not getting why the other person thinks that. You may still disagree with their view but don't rush to the negatives

no, you did, im merely telling the difference of Lu Bu and Guan Yu situation. you're the one who misunderstood it because you tend to butcher the statement by pieces instead of reading the whole paragraph.


1) You make a massive assumption about how I read posts. We all make assumptions but when it is negative about someone, maybe better to ask or seek clarity rather then saying it.

For record, I read the whole post first. I do check the full paragraph before I break it down into manageable chunks. It is way I debate, not the way I read.

2) To quote what I said fully as aiming to be super clear
None for Guan Yu (or ever in a retreat but same with Lu Bu). Your the one who brought up saving men Well, im not saying Lu Bu is a good leader either, but the way he judged his situation, he seemed better in saving his lives than Guan Yu did, I then questioned it. I didn't bring up saving men, you did.


The italizied bit was the first mention of saving men. This was from this post and was from you. My previous post (with the bit you were quoting from) Guan Yu was going, as Wei officers discussed, to come to the relief of his forces in Jing, he probably didn't know the extent of how things had collapsed. I'm not sure most would look well on Guan Yu if he withdrew from Fan and then went straight to Shangyong rather then what he would believed was his besieged officers

Nothing wrong with liking Lu Bu. I like Lu Bu, your not going to be judged for liking a figure. He was a proven bad leader though
then go onto Guan Yu worship

I didn't mention saving lives in that post. You then mention it. Now maybe you were referring to an even earlier post and it has slipped my memory but I can't find where you got it from, it could also be something of mine got misunderstood and lead to confusion. Please show me where I started discussing Guan Yu saving his men?
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